Syria Surprise!

In this week’s Gaslit Nation, Andrea and Terrell answer listeners’ questions about Syria, Ukraine, and Georgia–and urgent lessons for us here at home. 

Take a look at what’s happening in countries like Georgia and Syria—resistance movements are growing against oppressive, authoritarian regimes backed by Russia. It’s a struggle for freedom and self-determination, and it’s all part of the same global fight. Americans can’t keep pretending that foreign conflicts are somehow detached from our own issues. What’s happening abroad affects us too, whether we like it or not.

In Georgia, for example, the situation mirrors what’s happening in Ukraine: ordinary citizens are pushing back against corrupt governments and trying to secure their future with the European Union. Meanwhile, in Syria, a surprise push by a rebel alliance has liberated several key areas from Assad’s brutal dictatorship, propped up by Russia and Iran. Assad and his family fled to Russia, joining Ukraine’s Trump, Viktor Yanukovych. 

The left needs to take a long, hard look at the atrocities Russia is committing—not just in Ukraine, but around the world. And let’s not forget that Ukrainians are fighting for their own agency, their right to choose their future, in a way that should inspire us all. 

This week’s bonus show, for subscribers at the Truth-teller ($5/month) level and higher, answers questions from our listeners at the Democracy Defender ($10/month) and higher, and looks at the potential for Trump to start an actual war with Mexico. To hear all bonus shows, be sure to subscribe! 

Thank you to everyone who supports the show–we could not make Gaslit Nation without you! 

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Show Notes:

Red Lines: Documentary on Syria: https://iwonder.com/titles/red-lines-ad98aab62542ea8d524fed6dd51fcb76

Philip Obaji Jr.:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-putins-private-army-ordered-soldiers-to-torture-me/

Warnings from Syria: https://gaslitnation.libsyn.com/warnings-from-syria-on-how-to-stop-putin-in-ukraine 

In sweeping advance, rebels control parts of Sryia
https://www.npr.org/2024/12/01/nx-s1-5211885/in-sweeping-advance-rebels-control-parts-of-sryia

Who Are the Rebels Leading the Offensive in Syria? The group now advancing, Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, says it wants to replace the Assad government with one inspired by Islamic principles. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/02/world/middleeast/syria-rebels-hts-who-what.html

Trump Orders Withdrawal of U.S. Troops From Northern Syria https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/us/politics/mark-esper-syria-kurds-turkey.html

Commentary The US will become ‘minority white’ in 2045, Census projects
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-us-will-become-minority-white-in-2045-census-projects/

Donald Trump Has 'Obligations' to Those Who Brought Him to Power—Putin Ally
https://www.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin-nikolai-patrushev-donald-trump-russia-1984360

Why Six Countries Account for Most Migrants at the U.S.-Mexico Border Migrants and displaced people from across the world are arriving at the U.S.-Mexico border in droves. More than half come from six Latin American countries, where worsening violence, poverty, and other factors are pushing them to leave.
https://www.cfr.org/article/why-six-countries-account-most-migrants-us-mexico-border

Minority Rule: The Right-Wing Attack on the Will of the People--And the Fight to Resist It https://bookshop.org/p/books/minority-rule-ari-berman/19994801?ean=9780374600211

If Anyone Can Save the Democrats, It’s Ben Wikler https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/02/opinion/ben-wikler-dnc-chair.html

Download Transcript

Andrea Chalupa (00:00):

Gaslit Nation is more than a podcast. If you believe like we do that another world is possible, you are not alone. Ready to join the conversation and connect with like-minded listeners. Become a member of Gaslit Nation on Patreon. As a member, you'll get access to our exclusive virtual events like our weekly resilience, political salons, bonus shows, all while supporting the independent journalism that the world needs now more than ever. Join us at patreon.com/gaslit. We can't wait to welcome you. Welcome to Gaslit Nation. I am your host, Andrea Chalupa, a journalist and filmmaker and the writer and producer of the journalistic thriller, Mr. Jones, the film The Kremlin doesn't want you to see. So be sure to watch it. I am joined today by my dear friend Terrell Starr of the Essential Black Diplomats podcast and Substack Terrell is headed back to Ukraine soon, so be sure to follow him on YouTube where he's going to be posting a lot of documentaries from Ukraine at such a critical time in the global war between democracy and fascism of which you created is an important frontline. How are you doing, Terrell?

Terrell Starr (01:19):

I'm good. I just came from the gym and my body. I feel really good just physically. There's a Afro Ukrainian woman who's a bodybuilder that I'm doing a story. She's also going to start training me. I'm looking forward to that. We're going to get on a two month training schedule, and so I'm going to be really excited about how my body is going to look after.

Andrea Chalupa (01:41):

And you're Ukrainian, you're going to be doing this in Kyiv?

Terrell Starr (01:44):

Yeah.

Andrea Chalupa (01:44):

Nice.

Terrell Starr (01:45):

So she's a woman who I have been reporting on. Her story is going to debut in February. So my producer is going to come to Ukraine in January for seven to 10 days, and we're going to record a series, it's called Black in Ukraine. Living Through the War, we are going to document black Ukrainian voices and African residents and one of those people as a European champion bodybuilder.

Andrea Chalupa (02:12):

Well, Ukrainian spirit is made of bronze, so that's the place to do it.

Terrell Starr (02:16):

That's

Andrea Chalupa (02:16):

The place to work out your mind, body, and soul and come back safe to us.

Terrell Starr (02:20):

How about you?

Andrea Chalupa (02:21):

Me, I am feeling on top of the world. There's something about fighting fascism that gets my juices flowing. So I'm in my element right now as born for these times. I am ready. I want to open this episode with questions from our listeners. There's two pressing ones both on Syria and there's a lot to say about Syria because it is the world's karma, as I've said before on the show. The first question is from Kathy z. Kathy writes, could Gaslit Nation discuss the ongoing resistance in Georgia and Syria and how Putin may be further weakened? Also, how does that bode for Ukraine? Cara Meza recently recalled that change in Russia usually happens in a snap. Do you agree? Alright, what do you think, Terrell? So right now as we're recording, Georgians are putting their lives on the line, staying in the streets while the Georgian oligarch Russian backed regime blasts them with fire hoses and riot police, and they're holding their ground trying to stop the Russian backed government from pulling Georgia out of its process of joining the European Union and then Syria.

(03:40):

We have a whole deep dive on that, but I want to just stop on the Georgia question because Americans pay attention to Georgia. If Trump pushes through Project 2025, if Trump pushes through Marshall Law, like the far right leader of South Korea just did the South Korean parliament's pushing back against that martial law bullshit. But if Trump sees that go, oh, martial law, time to push my Stephen Miller sadistic immigration ban and Muslim ban and all these bans and around people up in the streets and force through Project 2025, we're going to have to take to the streets like the Georgians, like the Ukrainians and Euro maan. And so we cannot be like the Russian opposition that's led, that moved abroad, kicking the can down the road, making Russia somebody else's problem. America is our problem. We need to solve it here at home. We cannot flee abroad.

(04:27):

We need to stay here and fight. Martin Luther King Jr. Chose to go to the south. He felt morally required to be physically body and soul in the south. We have to stay in America, we have to hold our ground, we have to fight. We have to slow them down because they're going to be testing us, especially in the opening critical months of this regime. So what are your thoughts tare on any connections of what's happening now in Georgia as well as Syria and what that means for Putin and what lessons we can take from it here at home?

Terrell Starr (04:54):

What lessons can we take at home? These uprisings that we see in Syria, that we see in Georgia, which I'll get into detail. I just left Georgia a few weeks ago. We tend to assign an uprising in these emerging democracies for the simple fact that we considered them emerging democracies. A country like the United States is above it, but in fact we aren't. And I think that's the main thing. By the way, what happened on January 6th is not an uprising that was an insurrection. So let's just be clear. There's a distinction that we're going to make here, but an uprising is one where your government is just vehemently against the vast majority of the people. I think America, we should realize that just like Georgia, just like Ukraine, we too are developing nation. And I tell people as black people, my own family did not experience full rights of this country in this country until about 1970.

(05:50):

Before that we were not a democracy, therefore we are a developing democracy. So that's a specific response to your question about what lessons we can learn. Mainly we are developing our democracy just as much as everyone else, and we need to humble ourselves to that. Going on in Georgia, I was there to cover the parliamentary elections and the Georgian Dream ruling party. They won in what many Western observers considered to be rigged elections. People were literally paid to vote, they were fear monger out. But I went to the regions, some of those same dynamics were happening. People were threatened if they did not vote for Georgia Dream, the strong police presence that was influenced by Georgia Dream operating as a state security service against their people and was very much in play in that election. When I left, I didn't see this will to fight like I do now.

(06:40):

And the difference is that this is not the opposition leading these protests. This is very much self-organized by the people. For the people it's organic. And so this is really different and the key dynamic that I would draw with Ukraine, what's happening in Georgia, the Georgia Dream Party, they are pushing away from Europe and heading towards Moscow and Ukraine. What really triggered the protests was Victor Yankovich then president of Ukraine, COVID just refusal to move forward with further integration into the European Union. Then we later know that it was the police brutality that brow, the second and third waves of protests moving forward in Georgia. We see a similar trajectory happening where the government is making it clear that we're not going to move towards Europe and the Georgian people are not going for it. These protests are very much different from what we saw in the spring is going into the sixth day right now, and they are intensified.

(07:39):

And so a lot of the independent journalists who are covering this are all saying that this has potential. If the Georgian people are able to persist and to continue to push along. Now what you see is this aggression, this police violence. If it gets worse, then I suspect that we are going to see in Georgia what happened in Ukraine because what happened in Ukraine, the push to remove Victor Jankovich came because of police brutality. And we are seeing the signs of intense police brutality that's happening in Georgia. And if the police continue to be more brutal, that's going to be the end of Georgia Dream because the Georgian people are not going to stand for it. And so while Georgians may feel pressured to take $5 or $50 to vote for Georgia Dream, but if they see the police beating on their children and if they see someone die or get hurt, it's over for them. The thing about Georgia Dream, are they going to recognize that? No, because tyrants, authoritarians never see the other side. They never see my most brutal actions can depose me. If the Georgians continue to resist, Georgia Dream is going to use more brutal tactics with police violence and it's going to be the end of Georgia Dream.

Andrea Chalupa (08:50):

I want to remind everyone that like the Republican Party, Georgia Dream used to be anti-Russian, but over time it got taken over by a Russian operation of these Russian aligned Georgian oligarchs taking over the party just like what happened with the Republican party. So think of the de-evolution of Georgia Dream and the Republican Party into maga. They're the same Russian operation, weaponized corruption state capture. So if there's a Euromaidan Ukrainian style popular uprising that drives those Russian backed Georgian oligarchs out of town and into exile into Russia where they can join Victor Yakovich, the Ukrainian Trump who got ran out of town by I Euromaidan and also Assad who's there with his family hiding out. If the popular uprising succeeds in Georgia, is Russia going to spread itself thin and ramp up its military invasion of Georgia just like it did in response to Euromaidan?

(09:47):

They can't afford to do that. They literally cannot afford to do that as we're going to go into later in this episode. And the other big takeaway of all this is the look world. Look, all you people on the left that are silent about what's going on in Georgia and Syria and what Russia's doing across Africa, you who think you're holier than thou by being outspoken on Gaza, but you're silent when it comes to all these other atrocities out there. Look at what the people are saying. They're putting their lives on the line to reject Russia that connects to the disinformation spread on so many leftist podcasts across so much of the left social media that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is the fault of NATO expansion. NATO expanded because of what we're seeing in Georgia and by Syrians today. NATO expanded because human beings flocked to NATO for protection against Russian genocidal imperialism.

(10:44):

That is why NATO expanded those kids who are risking their lives right now for the type of lives that we're living in the West for the type of lives living all across the European Union. That is why NATO exists the strongest military alliance in all of human history. That is why NATO exists. It is to fight and unspeakable horror that Russia has carried out and is carrying out today across so many parts of the world. Venezuela, Syria propping up Cuba an authoritarian regime and carrying out atrocities across Africa. And so much of the left is complicit in that for being selectively silent. They'll speak out on Gaza. They won't speak out on the long list of atrocities carried out by Russia.

Terrell Starr (11:24):

Well, I'll put you this way. So let's break it down for them so that they can understand. They won't understand Ukraine because as I've continued to say, they understand imperialism through their lens of the West, and that's all they know and that's what they care about. They operate as if they're so altruistic in their thinking that we want peace, which is a very incorrect way of talking about Ukraine because it assumes that Ukraine is culpable in Russia's invasion of their country and they are not. Putin invaded Ukraine because he doesn't want Ukraine to exist. That is the bottom line. Sweden and Finland joined nato. He didn't do shit. Why? Because he knows that he can't bully nato. He knows that. And this whole thing of starting World War III, I just wish people would shut the fuck up about it because look, the Russians hate the West, but they love sending their children there for school they love...

Andrea Chalupa (12:19):

And their mistresses, their mistresses, their houses across Western capitals

Terrell Starr (12:24):

And they love having their mistresses there. They love going there to shop. They love western real estate. They love going on vacation there. They love having their yachts there. So no, they're not going to blow up their families and they're not going to do anything that would stop them from exploiting the West because they need it. If they hate the west so much, they would stay in Russia, but they won't because they like what the west can do for them. They just hate the fact that they have to behave and not conduct themselves like the savages that they're acting like in Ukraine. That's really what it comes down to. And so when we think about this idea of imperialism, we really have to ask ourselves, do you really care about imperialism in all forms? Do you only care about the imperialism? That reinforces your thinking that you're pure in your analysis of bringing forth world peace? Because if it only includes the West, then you're not as altruistic and as intellectually honest as you think you are.

Andrea Chalupa (13:21):

Thank you. And that is also why the mainstream American electorate has a hard time taking the left seriously when it comes to foreign policy. I'm talking like the left, left because there's just a huge blind spot. It's all just internet memes. That's their foreign policy. Okay, I'm going to jump into a question from another gaslit nation listener. Debra, please, please, please share whatever intel and predictions you may have about Syria. Will I see Assad be overthrown in the near future? The thought of the regime going down allows me more hope than I've had in years. And yeah, Deborah, I am right there with you the horrible, horrible treatment of Syria by the rest of the world. For instance, Obama drew his red line in Syria and said, if facade used chemical weapons, that's our red line. Assad used chemical weapons and then nothing happened. And then under Trump, he pulled us, forces US support out of northern Syria 19 abandoning our allies, the Kurds.

(14:24):

And throughout that time, you had Russian pumped disinformation being regurgitated in a human caterpillar of leftist disinformation across social media on rt, even on M-S-N-B-C, there's a great documentary showing that which I'll link to in the show notes called Red Lines. And so Syria, a horrible war that started with a popular uprising of the Arab Spring in 2011 with Assad backed by Russia, backed by Iran, backed by Hezbollah producing a G log system of dungeons where Syrians, even those who share the same religion as the Assad dictatorship dynasty are tortured or held in the dark for months. Horrible stories of electrocution people being so tortured, you can't even recognize them anymore. And on and on, the horrors go. So when we talk about Russian horrors on this show, what Russians are doing to Ukrainian civilians, Ukrainian prisoners of war, that's what the Assad regime has been doing against Syrians.

(15:25):

So many on the left turn a blind eye to that, and that's their karma that's on them, and they should be confronted with that. You could do a whole long list of the worst leftist apologists for Asad who have now turned themselves into a Gaza experts trying to shame everybody. You don't get to be on your perch of purity given your track record when it comes to pumping out Russian disinformation to try to divide and conquer the left when it comes to Syria. And yes, this does make its way into democratic administrations, Obama and Biden, because then they become more isolationist, then they become more hand wringing, not doing anything at all where the bad guys are just storming in and filling that power vacuum. So yes, that whole echo chamber of the left does matter. That's why we keep going back to it. Is Assad going to fall?

(16:12):

As I mentioned earlier, he is holed up right now with his family in Russia, and that just shows how deeply vulnerable he feels. Why does Assad feel so vulnerable? Well, the unintended consequences of the war between Israel and Hamas and then Israel and Hezbollah and Lebanon is what we're seeing now with this rebel alliance that's gaining so much ground in a matter of short days and liberating. All these villages, all these cities, including Aleppo, longtime serial watchers are like, I've never seen anything like this. I never even imagined anything like this since the war first began. This is historic. What is happening right now? It's a coalition that's being led by an Islamist group called HTS who are promising that they're going to be tolerant of minorities. There are Christian groups that are in liberated cities and villages who are making statements saying, we feel fine.

(17:07):

We feel safe. We're still practicing our faith out in the open. This is massive. What is happening right now? Assads forces are running scared. They're giving up heavy military machinery that's extremely expensive, including war planes. Russian jets are scrambling to try to stop this by doing what the Russians know best, which is carry out war crimes. The Russian planes, Asad forces are bombing hospitals to try to slow the assaults of this rebellion coalition. As we're recording today on December 3rd, the Rebellion Coalition is still gaining ground. How did this all happen? When Israel and Hamas went to war and then Israel and Hezbollah and Lebanon went to war? It took Iran and Hezbollah's focus away from Syria where they've been propping up Assad and they moved the attention onto Israel. And at the same time, Russia is tiring itself out in its unwinnable invasion of Ukraine.

(18:04):

And Russia's whole economy is currently on the verge of collapse, and Russia is desperate for more bodies for the meat grinder. They're now moving into the white proper Russian college students in Moscow and St. Petersburg grabbing those guys off the street to force them into the meat grinder. It's a desperate situation for Russia in its unwinnable war against Ukraine. Russia, which has been propping up Asad all this time is also moving away from Syria. So Asad has been left exposed and vulnerable, and this rebel alliance saw an opportunity and it's a grassroots effort. It's not Turkey, it's not the us. It's a homegrown rebel alliance that has been pushing back. And yes, there are US backed fighters and Turkish backed fighters. They've seized this opportunity to go in and make this big surprise push. And Assad and his family got the hell out of Dodge and they're in Russia where they may remain.

(19:00):

So what happens now, Israel and Hezbollah and Lebanon, they have been brokering a ceasefire and latest reports again from the Biden administration are promising that Israel and Hamas over Gaza will soon have some sort of deal on the table. And should that happen, then Biden will quiet down and that will then free up Hezbollah fighters to go back to Serial to then scramble and win back whatever ground they've lost thus far. But that's a big if because Netanyahu needs his war to continue. Remember, Netanyahu promised a long war. He said that his war could last 10 years. Why might that be? Because as soon as this war is over, then there'll be an investigation into Netanyahu security failures that led to October 7th in the first place, and all the corruption trials into him will resume. So Netanyahu really wants this war, but the Israeli public doesn't.

(19:54):

The Israeli public wants their hostages back. The Israeli public hates Netanyahu for all the hostages. He himself is killed and endangered. And so it's in the interest of Israel to end this war, to bring back stability and to push their old enemy, Iran and Hezbollah back into Syria and to be busy over in Syria and maintain that status quo. So from Israel's point of view, when they look at Syria, when they look at the Assad dictatorship, for them, it's the devil they know is better than the devil they don't know. Because that rebel coalition is being led by an Islamist group, which is yes, promising to be tolerant and more moderate than Al-Qaeda, isis, but it's still an Islamist group. Israel's like we prefer the status quo. Everyone in general prefers the status quo other than the people who are being held hostage by the status quo.

(20:42):

And then you have Russia that is just sinking in a disaster its own making. It does not have the resources to grind along in Ukraine while continuing to prop up Assad. It just cannot fight on those fronts. Why is that? Because Russia's own economy is on the brink of collapse. If you have 20 US dollars, that means you have 2,100 Russian rubles. 2,100 Russian rubles will buy you a supersized Big Mac and an apple turnover. You said on top of that, you have Russia's largest developer contractor on the brink of collapse. You have a massive labor shortage because so many Russians have fled abroad or been fed into the meat grinder. Putin just did a speech telling the Russian people not to panic. And in that speech, he threatened Trump's life. And Kremlin officials have been casually threatening Trump's life, left, right and center. Medvedev said, Trump's going to be another JFK. Paru said that Trump better not forget who brought him to power. Why might the Russians be so casually threatening Trump's life? Because they are desperate for a return on their investment.

Terrell Starr (21:53):

They don't do this to anyone else. They weren't saying this about Biden. I think it's important to keep that in mind. This is very strategic messaging that they're directing towards Trump to tap into his ego, to tap into this notion of We own you, we control you. This is definitely an operation to not only target Trump, but everyone else around him and even the American public.

Andrea Chalupa (22:18):

And Trump chose retired Lieutenant General Keith Kellogg as his special envoy for ending the war in Ukraine, which he promised he would end on day one. How do you plan to do that? Kellogg has a whole peace plan, which is an interesting one. It says that Ukraine can get aid as long as it in good faith works with Russia on some sort of peace deal, and Russia has to come to the table too, or support will amp up for Ukraine. Here's the thing, what's so brilliant about this, and I support it because it's not going to work, but the reason why, because Putin does not the whole Kremlin apparatus, they see themselves as a super power. They don't want to be on the same level as Ukraine, which they don't believe exists. And this, so Kellogg's peace plan forces Russia to acknowledge Ukraine exists as a sovereign nation sit down as equals to work out a peace deal, which the whole world seemingly wants, right?

(23:26):

But Russia will refuse to do it because they want their investment, Donald Trump, to give them all of Ukraine, including all of the resources they can mine in that country, all of the wealth they can steal for themselves. That's what Russia does. They're modern day pirates. They're already saying that they're going to piss all over plan Trump now no longer needs the Russians. He's now president of the United States. He's going to be the most powerful man, the richest man. He's got all these other people lining up to buy him off, free him from the Russian leash, and the Russians know this. And so that's also contributing to their panic and all the death threats that they're spitting at him right now. So that's going to be a war of wills, and I don't think is guaranteed that Putin's the winner. I've said before in this show, Trump abandoned Roy Cohn, the mega lawyer that built Trump.

(24:15):

Trump abandoned Roger Ailes, the mega propagandist that helped build Trump. It looks like Trump could even a abandon Putin. And there's enough cold warriors in the Republican party in the house and in the Senate who are staunchly pro Ukraine, who feel a sense of ideology with the Reagan revolution and standing up to the Soviet Union, and they're going to stand by Ukraine and be strong against Putin. And you already see a lot of hardcore Syrian activists who I know personally have been Obama supporters, Biden supporters, along with hardcore Ukraine supporters who also domestically are Democrats, but they believe in that hard line Reagan approach. And so I think there's going to be a very diverse political coalition that's going to surprise the fuck out of Putin. I think that's just the natural gravity of the situation because no one who would choose to live in Russia, even the Russians don't want to live in Russia.

(25:07):

So the Republicans are looking at this and going, we don't want you as our overlords. We're not going to let you make Ukraine fall and then drag us into a war with NATO when you start invading Poland and the Baltics next. And so there is going to be a harder line. That's my prediction. We'll see. As for Syria, this war between Israel and Hamas and Hezbollah, Iran proxies that are also backed by Russia, it was debilitating, debilitating of he Hezbollah and Hamas and Iran itself. And so it's going to take a while for those powers to rebuild after what Israel did to them. And Russia's busy Russia. Russia doesn't have time to help them rebuild and supply them. Russia is desperate forearms and bodies. And so I think Assad is stuck in Russia for the foreseeable future. And that rebellion that's rising up is going to be making more and more ground in the meantime.

(26:02):

But one thing people have to pay attention to. One huge Trump card, yes, I'll use that word in all this, is the fact that Russia has used Syria as a military base to carry out its operations all across Africa, raping, pillaging several African nations to the tune of stealing over $2 billion worth of gold from several African countries to prop up its war machine crimes against humanity. It is carried out in the name of all this. Again, the left is silent. There's a wonderful journalist who is risking his life and freedom covering all this. Philip Oba Terrell did a great interview with him, which we'll link to in the show notes. I encourage everyone to listen to it because we have to be aware of Russia's imperialism that is a vicious pirate all across Africa right now. And there's horrible stories of Wagner fighters, drunkenly going into a maternity hospital and raping women that had just given birth.

(27:02):

That's what Russians are doing in Africa. And the left is silent. We want Syria to be free for the sake of the Syrian people. This also this slows down Russia's larger operation across Africa. Those are things to watch and keep in mind. And I want to point out that the Western Democratic Alliance has not had any answer to what Russia is doing across Africa. This trend accelerated under Trump's secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, who said that the United States flat out does not stand for human rights. And what that does is it leaves a lot of civil society groups, the independent journalists, the anti-corruption, reformers, activists on the ground, and all these African nations more vulnerable. And it basically says that we're not going to prioritize funding you supporting you and know that that's not the equivalent of a CIA coup by funding civil society organizations at all. It's just simply not. So stop it with that bullshit left podcast out there.

Terrell Starr (27:58):

So here's the thing about Ukraine. When people talk about the Western coup in Ukraine, I know some of the activists who actually participated in the madam who actually coordinated. I know them personally. For example, when Joe Biden spoke at the Ukrainian Parliament to talk about corruption to depress Ukraine on reforms in the judiciary, this is during Petro KO's time as president. This was called upon by the Civil Society and Ukraine that was organic. And so this idea that the Ukrainians are some puppets of the West is flat out false. And one, it really undermines the integrity of some leftist thought that, okay, we are supposed to give people agency, but when Ukrainians exercise their agency about what they want for their country, it's considered a CIA Co. What we see in Ukraine is coming directly from the ground, purely organic, and finally about nato, which is different from the Warsaw Pack, which is pretty much coercing to enter their military alliance.

(29:07):

NATO has a telephone book, thick list of rules and policies and regulations that it takes years for you to adhere to if they accept you at all. Let's just be clear about that. If they accept you, you must apply for it. If you don't fit these rules and regulations, you're not entering nato. So this notion that NATO expands, number one, it's just the phrasing is incorrect. It's complete bullshit because NATO is very squeamish about letting people into their alliance anyway. And so the same thing with NATO in relation to Ukraine. And the only reason why NATO is seriously considering Ukraine is because the problem that's on their borders. Romania, Hungary, Akia, there's another country, Poland for NATO countries that border Ukraine. This is a problem for nato, whether they want it to be a problem or not, they're going to have to engage and support Ukraine whether they want to or not, in addition to the fact that Ukrainians show that they can fight. And they're arguably right now one of the strongest militaries in Europe. And so all of this is because Ukrainians chose that they want this future, just like what's happening in Georgia, these people are Europeans. They want to be a part of the West. They don't want to be a part of Russia. And a lot of the people who are saying that these are CIA Ks have never been to these countries. That's the wildest thing, right? They've never, ever

Andrea Chalupa (30:38):

We should send them. You know what I mean? We should make a list of all the podcasters that spread this NATO proxy war bullshit and crowdfund money to escort them to Ukraine and Georgia.

Terrell Starr (30:52):

It makes my ass itch. There are a bunch of punks for starters. One, there's one guy, I can't think of this doggone guy who actually went there on these lefty type of people who was like, okay, Ukraine is wasting all our money, dah, dah, dah, dah. Long story short, he did go to Ukraine and a podcaster who actually lives in Ukraine actually said, okay, I'll be your fixer. I'll show you around and I'll take you to the east. For example, right now, if you're somebody, just to give you an idea, people like me, people who actually live in Ukraine, it's a mindset. As soon as you get in there, your body, you physically and mentally immerse yourself into the realities of it. It's just what it is. Now, hearing air defense systems take down drones and missiles and all this jazz, you just get used to it.

(31:37):

This guy who was talking about Ukraine is wasting all this money. He went to Bach, moot. Bach moot has long been liberated. If you go to Bach, moot, it's not going to the East. That's the first thing. Just geographically, it's false. But the way that this guy was going around with his selfie stick, he was going around as if he were in freaking harky, and it wasn't the case at all. So my point to you is saying that Chalupa, look, we can make this list for people, but they're not going to go because they're punks. That's my bottom line. You're going to get a

Andrea Chalupa (32:05):

Selfie at the airport and then fly home.

Terrell Starr (32:08):

They're a bunch of punks. So here's the thing, Andrea, I would do it. I would take them because I've done it before. I'll take 'em to a desk. I'll take them to Zappa because these are the places I'm going to be going to when I go back to shoot my series in December. But these people are not going to go there. They're not about that life, right? They really are not people who are, they're

Andrea Chalupa (32:30):

About internet clout, which is just like a meaningless slush fund of disinformation.

Terrell Starr (32:36):

They're not going to go, because if you really try to them, they would have to second guess what they're saying because they know it's not true. And finally, they would never bring on a straight Ukraine expert. They're not bringing on people who actually are in the region to talk to them because they care more about the ideology than they do about the people. They don't care about Ukrainians or this idea. I just want the violence to stop bullshit. You will be protesting at the fucking Russian embassy in Washington DC every goddamn day, right? You will be doing that, but you're not doing it because you don't give a fuck. And so as somebody who goes to Ukraine, who lives there six, seven months out of the year, who endures the hundreds of missiles and drones in one day sent by Russia, somebody who understands Russia, where Putin talks about Ukrainians like they're trash, and to hear these people spread their bullshit, it's deeply offensive because it tells me that you don't respect the field because you don't know what you're talking about.

(33:33):

We can disagree on the policy, we can disagree on the approach, but this idea of just spreading this is a western coup. It taps into people's feelings, but it doesn't tap into fact, and it doesn't give these people the respect that they deserve as individual people because you don't see them as individual people. If I were to have this same mentality and the same disinformation mindset towards Palestinians, they go ape shit crazy. They would, if I were to do this against any other group of people that they care about, they would lose their shit. And so it just shows you that they don't take this stuff seriously. I was asked, well, Terrell, what have Ukrainians done for black people? Dah, dah, dah. I'm like, first of all, if you look at my podcast, if you read anything that I produce, I'm constantly talking with Ukrainians about these subjects, about what black solidarity looks like with Ukrainians. And my whole social media production is all based in that. You are too lazy to explore, to ask, who are these people who are of like mine? You don't want to do that because you're not intellectually interested in it because you're interested in conflict. And number two, I don't think that solidarity requires all sides to really understand what liberation looks for everybody. But ultimately, I don't necessarily look at every outreach of care as transactional.

(34:54):

It is not like, okay, I buy a pair of shoes. If I give you X amount of dollars. It's one human being saying, I care enough about your condition that I'm intellectually curious enough to understand. What do I have to do in order to understand what your struggles are and address and build from that point? And it may take years in order to build it, but that's what I do. And I think that in Ukraine, there are people out there who are of mind. And so when I hear these people who are on the far left, take this position that it's the West that is provoking Putin, my question to you, I would no more conflate all the worst people in Ukraine with the Society of Ukraine itself, as I would say, conflating Hamas with Palestinians. And so if we want to have a global, encompassing good faith approach to what liberation looks like for everybody, then we have to understand what do those steps look like for each individual person?

(35:52):

And they're going to look different the same way that we're going to seek liberation for the Palestinian people. It's not going to be the same way that we seek liberation for Ukrainians. It just ain't. And sometimes that approach towards liberation may contradict how I feel personally. For example, you may not like the idea that in order for Ukraine to survive, that they need to take weapons for the war machine. But damnit, we don't live in a fucking fantasy world because Putin ain't there to talk over this shit with you. He wants to kill you. So the only way that you're going to exact peace is to kill them. And there is no way that you can have a progressive working toiling peoples in Ukraine if they're dead. And that's going to be my response to everybody who has this persistent oral inconsistency about what peace means in Ukraine.

Andrea Chalupa (36:42):

Anytime you hear a leftist podcast host saying it's a NATO proxy war, that person is telling you they don't know history. And they're also telling you they would never storm the beaches of Normandy if they had to. When to join the conversation, shape the show by becoming a member of Gaslit Nation on Patreon. Join our community of listeners for exclusive q and a sessions. Bonus shows, get all episodes ad free invites to live events and more. Most importantly, connect with other listeners in our group chat and committees, planting Seeds of change. Sign up at patreon.com/gast. Gaslit Nation hosts resilience political salons every Monday at 4:00 PM Eastern Can't make it live. Recordings are available to our community on Patreon. Salons are your space to vent, ask questions, and connect with other listeners who also really, really hate Nazis to help Ukraine with urgently needed humanitarian aid.

(37:47):

Join me in donating to RASO for ukraine@rasoforukraine.org to help refugees in conflict zones donate to Doctors Without borders@doctorswithoutborders.org. And if you want to help critically endangered orangutans already under pressure from the palm oil industry, donate to the Orangutan project@theorangutanproject.org. Gaslit Nation is produced by Andrea Chalupa. Our editing wizard is Nicholas Torres, and our Associate producer is Carlin Bagel. If you like what we do, leave us a review on iTunes. It helps us reach more listeners and check out our Patreon. It keeps us going. Original music and Gaslit Nation is produced by David Whitehead, Martin Berg, Nick Barr, Damien Ariaga, and Carlin Dagel. Our logo design was donated to us Hamish Smite of the New York Based Firm Order. Thank you so much. Hamish Gaslin Nation would like to thank our supporters at the producer level on Patreon and hire. Iceberg is defiant. Lily Wachowski, Abby Zavos, Sherry Escobar, Sydney Davies. Work for Better Prep For Trouble. John Shoal. Larry Gossan, Ann Bertino, David East, Joseph Mara, Jr. Mark Mark, Sean Berg, Kristen Custer, Kevin Gannon, Sandra Collins, Katie ERUs, James D. Leonard. Leo Chalupa, Carol Goad, Marcus j Trent, Joe Darcy, and Marshall. DL Sinfield. Nicole Spear Abby Road. Janz. Stri. Rasmussen. Mark. Mark, Sarah Gray, Diana Gallagher, Jared Lombardo, and Tanya Chalupa. Thank you to everyone who supports the show. We could not make Gas Nation without you.