Self-Care with Churchill and FDR

Self-care is an act of resistance, especially when the fate of the free world depends on you. In the latest episode of Gaslit Nation, Andrea interviews Robert Schmuhl, author of Mr. Churchill in the White House. Their conversation reveals the fascinating dynamics between White House roommates Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt during World War II. It also delves into the debate: did Churchill really see Lincoln's ghost?

Two of the most powerful men of the 20th century, with towering egos and differing leadership styles, shared space in the White House during one of the most tumultuous periods in history. How did they manage? By treating self-care as sacred—a vital lesson for us today as we face a new era of America First and the rise of global fascism.

Schmuhl takes us behind the curtain, exploring Churchill’s struggles with depression and the personal toll of war. The episode doesn't shy away from darker aspects, including Churchill’s role in the Bengal Famine. It’s a thoughtful, nuanced look at two men who shaped the world, yet weren’t immune to their own flaws and the overwhelming challenges they faced to liberate Europe and overcome the isolationism at home driven by fascist-aligned America First. Sound familiar?

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Show Notes

The song featured in this week’s episode is “Free” by Aaron Espe: https://open.spotify.com/track/3M7xHMsoIeNKLkrJ2wY4i6

Submit your song to be featured on Gaslit Nation: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeS7TftV6Vfnw-iasFLepL6FpIj_KFORDLrAlZGH3nLg7i8lA/viewform

Mr. Churchill in the White House The Untold Story of a Prime Minister and Two Presidents https://wwnorton.com/books/9781324093428

Due to the Christmas Eve holiday and the coziness of this conversation--it's a perfect one to listen to around the fire or while wrapping presents--we're publishing this episode a bit earlier than usual. Happy holidays! 

Transcript

Andrea Chalupa (00:00):

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Free by Aaron Espe (01:12):

Above the sky, below the sea, anywhere you really want to be. That's how far you can go. That's how much you can go your free.

Andrea Chalupa (01:34):

The song you just heard was Free by Aaron Espe, who wrote it for his four sons. What a beautiful song. Thank you for your music, Aaron. To find Free by Aaron Espe. Check out the show notes for this week's episode for a Spotify link. If you have a song to share, gaslit Nation, submit it in the link featured in our show notes. Welcome to Gaslit Nation. I am your host, Andrea Chalupa, a journalist and filmmaker and the writer and producer of the journalistic thriller, Mr. Jones, about Stalin's genocide famine in Ukraine. The film the Kremlin doesn't want you to see, so be sure to watch it. Churchill and FDR had the weight of the world on their shoulders, but even those anti-fascists or Antifa, as we like to call them, had to find time to relax in an age of America First gaslighting. This week's guest shares Churchill and FDRs self-care secrets and how these two giants inspired each other in a conversation recorded shortly before the election.

(02:33):

This week's guest is Robert Schmuhl, author of Mr. Churchill in the White House, the Untold Story of a Prime Minister and two Presidents. We'll be back with all new episodes of Gast Nation as well as our Patreon q and a early in January. Yes, we're going to be locking arms bracing for what comes next together and an important reminder, our gaslit nation salons for our Patreon community will be meeting through the holiday season and beyond. This coming Monday, December 30th will be joined by a special guest for a live taping interview for you to ask your questions about disinformation warfare, how it works, and ways to fight back. That guest is Dr. Emma Bryant, a British scholar and academic researcher on media contemporary propaganda, surveillance and information warfare who was involved in exposing the Facebook Cambridge Analytica data scandal. She's an associate professor of news and political communication at Monash University in Australia.

(03:33):

Dr. Emma Bryant is a co-editor of the Rutledge Handbook of the Influence Industry, which features a chapter on law warfare or law fair, written by my sister Alexandra Chalupa. To join that conversation with Dr. Emma Bryant, be sure to be a member of our Gast Nation Patreon at patreon.com/gaslit. Discounted annual memberships are available, and if you are already a member, you can give the gift of a membership, and if you're not yet a member, you can try it out for free. We offer free subscription trials. Thank you to everyone who supports the show. We're going to do wonderful things together in 2025 and turn our rage and despair into important seeds of change. Now here's our interview.

(04:26):

Joining me today is Robert Schmuhl, the author of the must-read book, Mr. Churchill in the White House. What I love about your book, Robert, is that we look at Churchill and FDR as these icons that won the war against fascism, and that history gets neatly wrapped up in a little bow, and your book brings us down to the human level that Churchill and FDR were messy, complicated human beings, and they were in this roommate situation during a time when they had the fate of the world on their shoulders and they struggled with their own self-care. They literally struggled with living together. Eleanor Roosevelt had some funny encounters throughout this. Could you walk us through how did Winston Churchill come to live in the White House in the first place?

Robert Schmuhl (05:26):

He came to America as quickly after Pearl Harbor as he could, and Franklin Roosevelt was somewhat worried about his fate, his security on such a mission. And remember, it's important to say that of course, Pearl Harbor took place December 7th. Winston Churchill is going across the north Atlanta in mid-December, so it's wintertime, it's cold, there are U-boats all over that would love to take down the British Prime Minister, but Churchill really wanted to secure the relationship, the allied relationship with the United States because he had to think about it in these terms. America was attacked by the Japanese and Winston Churchill was focused squarely on Nazi Germany. He did not want the Americans to put the emphasis on the Pacific campaign. He wanted a Germany first policy and he wanted to secure that personally himself. He had been through so much before about 18 months of war. There was the Blitz, there was the Battle of Britain when he felt as though his island nation was alone. He wanted America at his side, said he'd be away for about a week and actually stayed in the White House from December the 22nd of 1941 and left on January the 14th of 1942. And if you do the math, that's about 24 days.

Andrea Chalupa (07:35):

Wow, okay. And so how did they cope with this living situation? What were some of the roommate scenarios they fell into?

Robert Schmuhl (07:48):

He was to be kind a demanding house guest. And after the first stay this long first one, Eleanor Roosevelt went to her husband and said, I think the government should purchase Blair House as the president's guest house. And in 1942, the US government did buy the Blair House. The irony of history is that Winston Churchill never stayed in the Blair house. He continued to come back to the rose bedroom at the White House. Why the rose bedroom? He had tested the beds in a number of other rooms in the White House. He liked the bed, didn't like the Lincoln bedroom. The bed was too hard, so he keeps coming back. And as you say, it's a roommate situation. Franklin Roosevelt, of course, is only able to get around in his wheelchair. There are many stories of Churchill helping him and guiding him with his wheelchair around the White House.

(09:08):

Early on, they were really boom companions. Both of them were great. Rockland tours told stories, shared interests, and so for the first days they were quite cordial and quite long, three of 'em lasted longer than two weeks. I think over time, and I hope the book explains this effectively, I think that Roosevelt began to tire of Winston Churchill and in 1944 they have the second Quebec conference and Churchill comes to Hyde Park, not to the White House after that, and only stays a couple of days and then heads back to London. Interestingly, for as many trips as Winston Churchill made to the United States, Franklin Roosevelt never went to Great Britain. There was always talk. The King had invited him. The king had been here at the invitation of Roosevelt earlier before the war, but he never found a way or a means, shall we say, to go there. Even though Churchill had discovered and held for the President a special apartment in London that would accommodate him and his disability, the amount of time they spent together was incredible. But Churchill stayed at the White House four different times. He also stayed at Hyde Park four times. So that you see the mixture of the personal and the political and the governmental straight through the relationship.

Andrea Chalupa (11:13):

What impact did Churchill's stays with FDR have on the war effort?

Robert Schmuhl (11:21):

We need to remember that Franklin Roosevelt had spent his time in the White House really focusing on domestic issues on the depression and bringing the country back. Churchill had much more war experience and had gone through the initial months of the war against Nazi Germany and Italy and so on. His first visit, the way I read it, is the Churchill was offering guidance to someone who did not have the experience that he did. Let's remember that Winston Churchill in his youth fought in a number of wars. He knew war. I don't think he relished it in any terrible sense. People forget he was involved in the last cavalry charge of the British army in Sudan so that he knew what it was like he could bring to the table to Washington. This understanding of where the war stood at that time in late 1941 and how the allies could come together to fight Nazism.

(12:49):

But at the same time, both of them had to be very aware of what was happening in the Pacific, in the Philippines and elsewhere. And so the two began to bond on that. And Churchill made a point on that first visit of having a map room set up in the White House. And by that I mean a room that was dedicated to these large maps on the wall that would show where the ships were, where the troops were, where the leaders were at any given time, and the two of them would go there at certain points of the day to sort of calibrate where the forces were and what might be the best maneuver. So that early on, I think he is a teacher and is helping Roosevelt to understand some of the complexities of war over time. As America becomes more powerful militarily, you see Roosevelt taking greater charge and being more decisive in what was happening. It starts in December of 1941. As I mentioned, he sees Roosevelt at Hyde Park for just a couple of days in 44. Then there is the famous, or some would say, infamous meeting at Yalta in February of 45. And after that, that's the last time that Churchill sees Roosevelt. And Roosevelt dies in April of 1945.

Andrea Chalupa (14:41):

So during this time when they're living together, FDR is dealing with a robust America first movement. There are American global superstars, Charles Limberg and Henry Ford who are anti-Semitic, who are pro-Nazi and their stars are on the rise. And he has this America first isolationist Congress he's contending with and a supreme court that's blocking his progress. And so he's very bogged down on the home front. And so how did Churchill counsel FDR on America's homegrown Nazi threats?

Robert Schmuhl (15:24):

He certainly accepted them, understood them. One of his most famous speeches early on in his prime ministership ends talking about the rescue and liberation of the old world by the new world. He kept trying to engage America to get it more involved. Roosevelt, who you don't want to win four presidential elections without having very keen antennae politically. He knew that he could not go as far as Churchill might have liked in terms of involvement. He did lend lease, which allowed them to get materials from America to go to Britain and elsewhere, but he could never bring himself. And the reason he couldn't bring himself is because he knew that he had too great a battle internally and domestically on this front. And what you see is, and it's interesting, in August of 1941, so six months or so before Pearl Harbor, there is a secret meeting between Churchill and Roosevelt off the Newfoundland coast, and at that particular meeting, which led to the Atlantic Charter, very important document, which interestingly enough points to post-war, what's the post-war world going to be after the Nazis are defeated? Now, this is well before America's involved.

Andrea Chalupa (17:07):

And the Atlantic Charter is the establishment that western democracies will unite for the values of democracy against tyranny.

Robert Schmuhl (17:16):

Absolutely, absolutely. So that Roosevelt was four square for that, theoretically, let's say. But in terms of what we now call boots on the ground, America wasn't going that far. And as you say, you had Lindbergh, you had Ford, you had many others. And quite frankly, I'm talking to you from Indiana. The Midwest was really the heart and soul of that America first thinking, and it was important. And Roosevelt knew he could not go as far as Churchill would've liked, but Pearl Harbor changed everything. And that's what's important is that once America was attacked and the results of it were spread widely in news accounts across not only America but the world that began to change public opinion. And you had the rally round, the flag effect. And Roosevelt was certainly keen to that. And in a way, Churchill was too in a motivation, a very strong motivation for him to come over in December of 41 was to make sure that that rally round the flag and we're in this together, we're in for the fight to the finish.

(18:53):

He wanted to emphasize that just as much as he could so that he arrives on the 22nd of December, on December 23rd, goes with Roosevelt and conducts a press conference and very public gets lots of attention. He's an enormous showman. But for that first press conference, some of the reporters in the back said, Hey, we can't see the man. We can't see him. So what does he do? He climbs up on a chair and waves to him so that they'd get a good view of this chubby little visitor coming from London. You have the lighting of the Christmas tree, the national Christmas tree on December the 24th, Christmas Eve. He gives a speech. In that speech he calls the White House, the summit of the United States, meaning he wanted to be on that summit. He wanted to be as close to power as he could in the new world on Christmas Day.

(20:08):

What does he do? He devotes much of the day to writing a speech that he then delivers the next day to a joint session of Congress. And what I'm saying is he's doing all these public activities, all of them getting enormous amounts of attention. And one of the things I discovered, two sets of twins in the United States were named Franklin and Winston. During that period, many other just little boys were named Winston because of his visit. Something like 5,000 cigars were sent to the White House for his smoking habit. And of course they were all destroyed because of security concerns. But what I'm suggesting is he individually, the showman, the statesman emphasizing the importance of America and Great Britain being together, fighting together and finding a way to win.

Andrea Chalupa (21:18):

Wow. So I think it's important to also point out that Churchill, his journey to become the prime minister who had to save his country from fascism, both homegrown as well, and Hitler's march and his blitz, Churchill had this sort of unlikely rise to power. He was considered at one point A has been, and then he became the man for this moment, and he had to whip Great Britain into shape to get suddenly on war footing. And he is dealing with his own internal inefficiencies in this mass mobilization movement and getting the Navy already, they were scrambling, they were scrambling, and the Nazis were bombarding London every night, night after night. And the British had to deal with food shortages and all these shortages, and it was just a very demoralizing time. The trees of London were filled with women's stockings and other debris from all of these destroyed city blocks. You'd see families just walking down the street with their suitcases or just staring into space. And Churchill had this on his shoulders. And so could you speak a little bit about that, where Churchill was in history in this moment, and how you see him as this sort of man who was called for this moment?

Robert Schmuhl (22:52):

It is his moment. It was his own finest hour. But I think you could extend that and say it was Britain's finest hour in the sense that they came together. And here I would say that the importance of his oratory cannot be minimized. It's almost incomprehensible today to think that a leader like Winston Churchill would be the writer of all of the speeches that he delivered. And yet that was indeed the case. As I mentioned, when he is over in the US and has to give major speeches, he gave two to Congress while Roosevelt was president. He also gave a commencement address at Harvard during one of his trips in 43. But he during the thirties had been this early warning system, is how I describe it. Very few people in Great Britain wanted to hear about the need for military buildup and the threat that was being posed by Nazi Germany.

(24:15):

And yet Churchill in his wilderness in those particular years is writing and speaking about the threat. One of the speeches he gave was, will the lights go out in Europe and can America avoid the war? Things like that. As you suggest, he is out of office, he's still in the House of Commons but has no office. And the first choice is not Winston Churchill. When Neville Chamberlain is going to step down, it's Lord Halifax, but Halifax doesn't want to take it on and doesn't think somebody from the house of Lord should be the prime minister. And so it falls to Churchill, and you have him early on making speeches that today as you read them, you say, my God, what power of language the people heard them, the people rallied. Here is I think a good example of someone in public life who used really stagecraft to his advantage, to the advantage of his statecraft.

(25:40):

If there was a bombing somewhere in London or elsewhere nearby, he would be on the scene the next morning walking around and assessing the damage he was among the people and the people rallied behind him. And in those speeches, and this is really interesting, some of them, and this is the interpretation of a number of historians, some of them were more written more for American consumption than they were for British. Again, to try to bring America his phrase with its power and might to the side of Great Britain, if you want to study leadership, those first years and months of Churchill's prime ministership are pretty good examples of what you should do and how you should do it.

Andrea Chalupa (26:42):

It's fascinating to me to watch British politics today with Rishi Sunak losing the election and making a statement that included the importance of democracy and holding up Ukraine as an example. And his outgoing statement as Prime minister saying, this was an election, this is democracy. This is what Ukrainians are dying and giving their lives for. And it was so heartening to see the two major political powers in Great Britain, so united behind Ukraine, given what Great Britain went through with Hitler and the Blitz and all the sacrifices that country made to liberate Europe along with the rest of the allies. And it's disappointing that we don't have that same dynamic here in the United States, and it's a danger to us here at home as well as the world. And I want to just ask you, do you think that Great Britain support for Ukraine, steadfast support comes from their own experiences in World War ii?

Robert Schmuhl (27:46):

I think to a certain degree, yes, and to a certain degree, and this really goes back to one of your earlier interesting comments. I think that there is a fairly strong America first attitude and mentality in the United States right now that would be somewhat similar to what we saw in the 1930s and into 1940 before Pearl Harbor in 41. So that is something that has a consequence on the American divisions about Ukraine. But the British have been steadfast in their support. We have certainly, while President Biden has been in the White House, we've seen an enormous commitment on the part of the United States. Will that continue should someone else be elected in the upcoming election? That's interesting. One point, and people tend to forget this about Winston Churchill, he was the great, and one might almost say the greatest believer in democracy, and he was willing to fight for it and to do whatever he could to make sure that it continued.

(29:22):

He contested 21 elections in his career, his political career began in 1900. He dies in 1965, and as I say, he contests 21 elections, he loses five. And the reason I'm saying is this is someone who would lose and immediately say, fine, that's the will of the people. I'm coming back. I will contest again. In 1922, he loses. This is a ironic footnote. He loses to a Scottish prohibitionist candidate prohibitionist. Aren't we amused that Winston Churchill loses to a prohibitionist candidate? He loses in 22, he loses in 23, he loses in 24, but then he comes back and he's in the House of Commons and indeed becomes Chancellor of the ex checker during many of the years that followed until 29. And the reason I'm saying that is his devotion to democracy was really part of his own constitution. I will contest an election, I hope I win. If I lose, I will come back and I will talk to the people, make my case again and go forward. Unfortunately, around these parts in 2024, that attitude doesn't seem as strong as I think it should be.

Andrea Chalupa (31:10):

Absolutely. Could you speak about Winston Churchill's black dog, the Depression that plagued him and did that surface during his time staying at the White House?

Robert Schmuhl (31:22):

We really don't have evidence of that, but there are interesting and dramatic moments. I mean, give you just one that's I think pretty important. The evening after his speech to Congress, speech to Congress, December 26th, 1941, the rose bedroom at the White House was very warm, and he goes over to the window to try to open it and has to fight it. It was so difficult and feels a sharp pain running down his arm and his doctor comes, and his opinion was that it was a slight heart attack and clearly it was an important moment. More contemporary analysis says he might have just torn muscles or something. But what's interesting is if you track it, even his daughter in one of the books that she wrote refers to the heart attack that her father suffered during that trip. Not long after that, he makes two trips. I mean, one of the points I try to make in the book is that Winston Churchill, despite his age, he becomes Prime Minister at 65.

(32:56):

Okay? Most people in Britain were going to retire by 65. He becomes a prime minister during war and is that age. He is someone who is a daredevil. And I mentioned the first trip across the North Atlantic, supposed to take five days, six days. The storms, the Gales were such that it took 10 days to get here. It was an enormously difficult voyage. And yet he's there and he keeps coming back in 1942 as he is leaving the White House. And on that trip, he flew both ways, something he rarely did, but he flew both ways. And at the airport in Baltimore, as he's getting ready to get on the return flight, there's a man there who is ready to assassinate him and the Secret Service figure out that there's problems and they detain him and ultimately arrest him so that there are any number of moments during his visits when personal problem, shall we say, intrude.

(34:19):

But there's no real sense that he's sitting in the rose bedroom despondent, unable to work. I found absolutely no evidence of him not being engaged to the point of driving his secretary's nuts while he is working at the White House. He made the White House basically his office. He often just worked in bed and would dictate and then go through the dictation. Wonderful story. In 1943, he had to give an anniversary speech back home, although it was broadcast in the US too about the Home Guard. And he's supposed to take to the air at 1230. So right after noon and about 10 30, he has not begun to write the speech. And secretary comes in and he's shuffling papers and the muse has not arrived. And finally he starts dictating and it takes her and another one to finish the job. But he worked wherever he was. And in 1943, later, not that may trip, but the one that was August into September, I figured out that he rode on trains in the rail systems of both Canada and the us, about 5,000 miles going from place to place, working the whole time dictating, and then spending time at the Quebec conference, spending time both at the White House in Hyde Park and ultimately returning to London after a period of several weeks being away.

Andrea Chalupa (36:24):

What are your thoughts on Churchill believing that he saw Lincoln's ghost in the White House?

Robert Schmuhl (36:29):

I think that's a myth. I don't think that there's any substantiation for that, and I

Andrea Chalupa (36:37):

That Churchill believe that or that

Robert Schmuhl (36:40):

He did not believe it.

Andrea Chalupa (36:42):

Okay. He

Robert Schmuhl (36:42):

Did not believe it. I mean, there are all sorts of stories behind closed doors of the White House involving Winston Churchill that are interesting and colorful. I just have not bought the Lincoln's ghost thing. And let's face it, he didn't stay in Lincoln's bedroom for a reason, but the reason was not a ghost, it was the bed.

Andrea Chalupa (37:09):

Okay, so to be clear, so you believe that Winston Churchill never made the claim that he saw Lincoln's ghost, or you don't believe it actually was Lincoln's ghost that he saw?

Robert Schmuhl (37:21):

Well, boy, you're splitting the Lincoln hares. They finally, I just have not seen the evidence that one, that he really said it all that openly. If that's not too coy, and I don't think he saw Lincoln's, I think he would've gotten mileage out of that, that in his memoirs. And let's face it, he was the highest paid writer during the thirties and all, I mean, highest paid journalist. And I think we would've seen a good deal of writing by him about the experience of all of that. But I have not seen that.

Andrea Chalupa (38:11):

So Churchill and FDR would have these cocktail hours where they weren't allowed to talk about the war. And I just think that's so fascinating. Could you speak a little bit about that and what else Churchill and FDR did for self-care?

Robert Schmuhl (38:26):

Great question. And you're correct. This would be Franklin Roosevelt's social hour. And usually when, say a Winston Churchill is not staying at the White House, he was usually surrounded by women, usually not Eleanor, and they would just socialize and tell stories and swap rumors. Churchill was always trying to get as close to Franklin Roosevelt as he could. And I'm going to say this carefully. He tolerated his cocktail hours. By that I mean that Franklin Roosevelt liked to make the drinks himself, and the drinks that he made were not to the liking of someone like Winston Churchill, probably a little too fruity, probably not as strong as he would have liked. And the story goes that he would take a drink from the president and find a way of watering the plants or whatever with the drink so that he wouldn't have to drink them. And yet he participated in these occasions and they meant a lot to Franklin Roosevelt.

(39:51):

And he's trying to score points with the president along the way. The stories that to me really show how chummy they were, were involved. Roosevelt going from his room, his quarters down to the visiting Prime Ministers, and there's the very famous one of him rolling in his wheelchair. And there is Winston Spencer Churchill in all of his flower getting out of the bathtub. And Franklin Roosevelt says, United Nations. And Churchill says, great phrase or words to that effect. And what had happened was they were trying to find a better phrase than the associated powers for the allies. And Franklin Roosevelt came up with the phrase, United Nations. He is all excited about that phrase and rolls into the rose bedroom and announces it with Churchill just stepping out of the bath. It's in Churchill's own memoirs of the Second World War. So it's not as if it's in dispute or anything like it.

(41:16):

The one that I find interesting, and one reviewer of the book said, I made too much of this particular situation, but who cares? It was Wendell Wilke. In 1940, Franklin Roosevelt ran against Wendell Wilke, a Indiana business figure who was running on the Republican ticket. Those were different days from our current situation. And Roosevelt and Wilke remained somewhat friendly. And in January of 1941, Wilke is stopping by the White House and is talking to Franklin Roosevelt. And Roosevelt said, Winston is here. Do you want to go see him? And Wilke knew Churchill. They had met before. And he says, sure. And they go to the room, the rose bedroom, and Roosevelt says to the guard, who's outside the door or the aide is your man up yet? And he said, I don't think so. And he said, well, let's check. And they just opened the door.

(42:30):

And there in all of his glory is Winston Churchill. And he has just gotten out of his bath again. He took two a day religiously and sees the president of the United States and the candidate who ran for the presidency there and says, pray, excuse my state of nature. And he welcomed them into his room and they had a jolly talk. And I think that those kinds of stories, there are many others show you that he had made himself at home in the White House. And if there were social occasions, as you say, for the cocktails and all, he played that game just as much as he did, the much more serious game of getting the allies together in working out the war strategy that would be put in place from 41 onto the end of the war, quite frankly.

Andrea Chalupa (43:36):

Did you speak about the Bengal famine? Churchill's been accused of worsening a famine that was created by natural, I'm not an expert on it, but it's always been a major footnote on Churchill's legacy, that he didn't rush aid to alleviate the suffering of the Bengal famine, that he was prioritizing the war effort. He didn't care about millions of brown people dying of famine. And so that has been part of his legacy. Could you speak a bit about that?

Robert Schmuhl (44:12):

Sure. And it's important and worth discussing. Winston Churchill was very much a person of the Victorian age and had been involved in really the empire during his military days. He goes off to India, he is there, he's in Sudan, he's in South Africa. And in many respects, I would be someone who views Churchill as he had an enormous ability to look to the future. He saw the danger of Nazi Germany. He saw the danger of Soviet communism. He saw the wonder and future of the United States, but he didn't look back in any sort of critical way. And in the 1930s, he was one of the figures who was not inclined to support Indian independence. And so had that reputation to deal with. And all of this is easily and clearly documented in terms of the famine. I think as you suggest, it's complicated. And there are a number of different factors in it, and some we should recognize.

(45:42):

But there were war problems in terms of trying to get grain and other materials into India because of the threats, because of the submarines guarding the waters that would've been needed to be used to deliver it. Was everything possible done to alleviate it? I don't think I'm going to say that that's probably the case, but do I think that it was deliberate on Churchill's part? I don't think I'm going to go that far either, but it's complex. And I think in recent years, the negative statements about him have been fully aired. But as we look forward to on November the 30th, that will be his hundred and 50th birthday. Was the world a better place because of Winston Churchill and what he did, what he said, how he handled himself? I think if you put it on scales, I think that the answer to that is a yes. Did he have human flaws and frailties and blind spots? Absolutely. But I think all of us tend to have them as well

Free by Aaron Espe (47:28):

Above the sky, below the sea, anywhere you really want to be. That's how far you can go. That's how much you can go your free. Just look around inside of you. It's deep enough to drink all of it. True. That's how far you can go. That's how much you can know Your free, free, more free than a feeling more free than a place higher. That's how far you can go. That's how much you can know your free. Free. More free than feeling more free than Well, that's all I got. Nothing left to say. Just it's okay to leave and it's okay to stay. That's how far you can go. And that's how much you cannot your free, free, free, free.

Andrea Chalupa (50:35):

When to join the conversation shape the show by becoming a member of Gaslit Nation on Patreon. Join our community of listeners for exclusive q and a sessions. Bonus shows. Get all episodes ad free invites to live events and more. Most importantly, connect with other listeners in our group chat and committees, planting Seeds of change. Sign up at patreon.com/gaslit. Gaslit Nation hosts resilience political salons every Monday at 4:00 PM Eastern Can't make it live. Recordings are available to our community on Patreon. Salons are your space to vent, ask questions, and connect with other listeners who also really, really hate Nazis to help Ukraine with urgently needed humanitarian aid. Join me in donating to ROM for ukraine@rasoforukraine.org to help refugees in conflict zones donate to Doctors Without borders@doctorswithoutborders.org. And if you want to help critically endangered orangutans already under pressure from the palm oil industry, donate to the Orangutan project@theorangutanproject.org.

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Gaslit Nation is produced by Andrea Chalupa. Our editing wizard is Nicholas Torres, and our associate producer is Carlin Daigle. If you like what we do, leave us a review on iTunes. It helps us reach more listeners and check out our Patreon. It keeps us going. Original music and Gaslit Nation is produced by David Whitehead, Martin Berg, Nick Farr, Damian Ariaga, and Carlin Daigle. Our logo design was donated to us by Hamish Smite of the New York based Firm order. Thank you so much. Hamish Gaslin Nation would like to thank our supporters at the producer level. On Pat and hire, iceberg is defiant. Lily Wachowski, Abby Zavos, Sherry Escobar, Sidney Davies. Work For Better Prep For Trouble. John Schoenthal. Larry Gossan, Ann Bertino, David East, Joseph Mara, Jr. Mark Mark, Sean Berg, Kristen Custer, Kevin Gannon, Sandra Collins, Katie Urus, James D. Leonard. Leo Chalupa, Carol Goad, Marcus j Trent, Joe Darcy, and Marshall. DL Sinfield. Nicole Spear Abby Road. Jans, stri. Rasmussen. Mark. Mark, Sarah Gray, Diana Gallagher, Jared Lombardo, and Tanya Chalupa. Thank you to everyone who supports the show. We could not make Gaslit Nation without you

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