Hitler Youth
If you want to see where America is headed, watch The Bibi Files. The greatest threat to Israeli democracy, as well as peace for both Palestinians and Israelis, continues to be Bibi Netanyahu and his wife, Sara. Joining us this week are filmmakers Alexis Bloom, director of The Bibi Files, and producer Alex Gibney, who is also working on a documentary on Luigi Mangione and the corruption of the healthcare industry. Check the show notes for a link to watch The Bibi Files–one of the most chilling true crime dramas that show how corruption threatens international security.
As you know by now, Nazi Elon Musk has a team of Hitler Youth dismantling our democracy. We're in a generational struggle, but history shows we can prevail. We defeated the genocidal traitors of the Confederacy, defeated the Nazis in World War II, and dismantled Jim Crow. Ignorance and hate are sadly human traits, but so are progress, collaboration, and the pursuit of a better future.
Our role now is to be sand in their gears. You individually don't need to fight every battle, but if we each adopt just one cause that matters deeply to us and take action—by calling our representatives, showing up in person to talk them out of their fog of complacency, and primary every Democrat who is not meeting this moment—we can slow down the violence of the MAGA agenda and build political power of our own. And in doing so, we can safeguard a future where our families, communities, and the world enjoy a livable future.
If there's one thing these broken little men fear, it's your defiance, your inner light, and your capacity for creative action. They want us demoralized, but we can be hopeful. Now more than ever, we need to come together.
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Show Notes
Watch The Bibi Files https://www.jolt.film/watch/the-bibi-files
Andrea’s interview on Jessica Denson’s Lights On: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjpmySxlrKI
A 25-Year-Old with Elon Musk Ties Has Direct Access to the Federal Payment System https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-associate-bfs-federal-payment-system/
AOC Livestream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&feature=shared&v=CVgNJf6CsBA
Andrea’s 2005 review of Alex Gibney’s Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room https://www.portlandmercury.com/movies-and-tv/2005/04/28/33542/smarter-than-you
'Unfathomable': How this stunning Luka Doncic-Anthony Davis trade came together https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/43676830/how-stunning-luka-doncic-anthony-davis-trade-came-together-los-angeles-lakers-dallas-mavericks
From Chad Loder: NEW: Archived tweets for Gavin Kriger, Musk's 20-something DOGE employee wreaking havoc inside USAID, shows that Kriger has retweeted multiple neo-Nazis including Nick Fuentes, leader of the so-called Groyper movement, and another popular explicit Nazi account recently unmasked by @travisbrown.dev https://bsky.app/profile/chadloder.bsky.social/post/3lhc52j6kns2d
From Justin Baragona: Joe Kent, the guy Trump is nominating to lead his counterterrorism division, employed Proud Boys and Patriot Front members, met with Nick Fuentes and sat down with a neo-Nazi YouTuber for an interview. https://bsky.app/profile/justinbaragona.bsky.social/post/3lhcuqiqhzc2y
From Asha Rangappa: Honestly someone needs to let the dean of the college know that one of their students is actively violating several federal laws. I am certain that violates the student code of conduct and university disciplinary action might be the only enforcement mechanism we have right now https://bsky.app/profile/asharangappa.bsky.social/post/3lhcoe3c3ok2l
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Transcript
Jessica Denson (00:00):
I promise you, dictators die. Dictatorships die. They do not last forever. They crumble under their own corruption and stupidity. So if you are feeling scared, I assure you the idiots that we're up against are broken little men. Do you think Elon Musk likes himself? He does not like himself. His own children do not like him. He is a broken, broken human being. He's a master troll doing all this lashing out for attention. That doesn't make it okay. Obviously we're not excusing it, but when you think of these monsters, don't think of 'em as big scary monsters. Think of them as just broken. Fundamentally broken human beings that are miserable with themselves and they're trying to drag the rest of us down by terrorizing us. They want us to internalize that fear so that we stay home and that we see them. Oh, you're such a big man. You're so tough. No, they are not. No, they are not. Because if they're truly comfortable with themselves, they would have the self-confidence and the self-love to build something of value instead of buying their way by throwing their name on Tesla and other things so they can prove to everybody else that they're deserving of love.
Andrea Chalupa (01:21):
Our opening clip was my interview Monday night with Jessica Denson on her show Lights On, I'll link to the full discussion in the show notes, which includes ways to resist this evil even if you're in a so-called red state, otherwise known as a Republican hostage state, don't lose hope everybody. That's what they want. We are in a generational battle, but guess what? We've always been in a generational battle. We defeated the genocidal traitors of the Confederacy. We defeated the Nazis in World War ii. We defeated Jim Crow. Ignorance and hate unfortunately are human, but so is progress civilization and working together. That's why if we adopt one issue, one issue, we care about one that impacts our lives and communities and make our phone calls show up to our local representatives, offices that surprises the hell out of them, show up and talk them out of their complacency, and if they refuse to break out of that fog primary, the Democrats who refuse to meet this moment, we need all that, all of that combined to buy valuable time.
(02:35):
And I'm going to play a quick clip of a OC who did a Instagram live breaking it all down. It's over an hour long. I'll link to it in the show notes and she points out something that I observed in my three and a half months or so interning on Capitol Hill for Senator Barbara Boxer of California. There is this oppressive decorum, especially in the Senate where people abide by these invisible rules that are meant to control opposition and to keep people in their place. I've witnessed this and AOC brilliantly calls it out in her Instagram live. Here's a clip.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (03:12):
Democrats in the Senate in the name of ceremony and fake history. In the case of the filibuster, it's fake history that they cite and what have you. Like gentleman's agreements. The Senate loves their gentleman's agreements, which is to say it's not rule breaking, but it's just like these kind of handshake practices that they have. We have to stop playing nice in the Senate and block every damn thing.
Andrea Chalupa (03:46):
We need to be creative now. We need to push boundaries. We need to put the breaths, knuckles on and we need to buy time, delay, delay, delay, delay. Instead, you have so many Democrats voting on this disastrous, dangerous MAGA cabinet that was picked to be the most least qualified extremist people to destroy our very government from within and weaken our global alliances and undo international security. Setting off a ricochet effect that's going to create so many disasters around the world and thrust so many already vulnerable people into greater vulnerability. It's bad. Just accept how bad it is now so you can not be as shocked when this all comes to pass. We can sabotage mag's violent agenda. We can do this when we can stand a chance for a livable future, not just obviously for ourselves and our families, but the whole world. Commit now to doing something instead of nothing.
(04:45):
Choose hope over despair and be defiant in the face of broken little men desperate to scare you. What they fear most is your inner light and your bravery. So unleash your creative potential. Find joy in our collective work for shared safety and liberation. We need you now more than ever. We need each other now more than ever. There are so many regular men and women that stood up and did the damn thing in battles like this before us. Many of their names are forgotten, never known in the first place. They don't care. They were just doing the right thing in that moment. Their higher selves showed up and we are all alive and have enjoyed what freedoms we had in this country because of them. And now it's our turn to be those superheroes and that's what we're doing. As you've heard by now, Elon Musk employed a team of Hitler youth to illegally purge and steal our most vital and sensitive government systems endangering countless lifesaving programs across the country and around the world hijacking the US Treasury when the US Constitution is clear that Congress holds the power of the purse. Here's Katie Drummond, global editorial director at Wired speaking with CNN's Aaron Burnett. As you listen, know that one of these creeps is Gavin Kreger. He retreated multiple Nazi social media accounts including Nick Fuentes, the infamous neo-Nazi and founder of the Groupers movement and online network of Nazi trolls weaponized by Fuentes under Elon Musk's leadership. Hitler youth have taken hold of our government. Musk himself proudly performed a Nazi salute twice during Trump's inauguration and now they're pillaging and destroying and office spacing the whole thing. Here's a clip.
Erin (06:35):
These stories are sort of amazing. And then you're thinking, what world are we living in where you have an unelected, unconfirmed individual with so much power going into a system with trillions of dollars of payments and other government agencies. You've been focusing on six computer engineers. They're all men and they are young. The youngest is 19.
Speaker 6 (06:56):
And Erin, just to be clear, this is the world we are living in and Wired has been documenting a few sort of small parts of this world, including yes, we have identified and our reporting has identified six young men. All of our reporting indicates they're between the ages of 19 and 24. They are either recent high school or recent college graduates, high school, high school graduates in at least one case, all with ties to either Musk owned companies or Peter Thiel owned companies. So one is a former Palantir intern, another interned at SpaceX. One is a Thiel fellow, another recently completed a summer internship at Neuralink, which of course is also owned by Elon Musk.
Erin (07:36):
Alright, so what are they actually doing and who's paying them for the work?
Speaker 6 (07:44):
Well, to be candid, a little bit difficult to ascertain exactly what they are doing. What we do know is that they are working across several federal agencies, including Doge of course, as well as the Office of Personnel Management, which is essentially the HR function for the government and the General Services administration, which oversees things like federal buildings, leases and then technology and it. So what we do know is that these young men are working at the behest of Musk and his team that he has brought in across these agencies on a number of engineering related tasks.
Erin (08:21):
So okay, Elon Musk wants anyone talking about this, sharing the names of these Doge employees charged with a crime. Obviously these are people who are going in and now going to have access to payment systems that affect hundreds of millions of Americans possibly if you talk about treasury or and certainly federal employees. He's got the backing of the US Trump attorney in Washington says the FBI and prosecutors are investigating. Has Musk reached out to you or any of his lawyers or anything.
Speaker 6 (08:51):
We haven't heard from Musk or his legal team? Obviously what I would say is that our reporting speaks for itself. It is rigorously reported and fact-checked and vetted by our spectacular legal team and we look forward to continuing doing the work, trying to figure out exactly what Elon Musk and his team are doing inside of these federal agencies.
Erin (09:10):
And it's important work, it's brave work.
Andrea Chalupa (09:12):
In addition to that, Trump appointed Joe Kent, a young man with ties to neo-Nazi groups to lead his counter-terrorism division. Basically the Gestapo. Kent has appeared on a Nazi YouTube channel, met with again Nazi Nick Fuentes and hired members of groups like The Proud Boys and Patriot Front. Both essentially are Trump storm troopers that led the violence at Trump's attempted coup of our democracy on January 6th. These are Nazis, America, they're Nazis and Russia is a fascist, xenophobic, terrorist state that openly helped bring Trump to power because this, as we've been warning since the start of the show, is a global war of fascism against democracy. And right now America is under occupation by Nazis and Trump just opened up his first concentration camp in Guantanamo Bay. We launched Gaslit Nation years ago with the urgent alarm: This is a constitutional crisis. That was the headline of our very first episode.
(10:18):
It's all coming to pass. As we warned, if our institutions and Democrats didn't step up to stop this, what could they have done? A lot as we've covered on the show for many years, including they could have hired a special prosecutor from day one and gone after the January 6th coup plotters for the 14th Amendment, which bars traders from holding office. We had a civil war and because of that civil war, we had laws in place that could have been used to clean house and put in safeguards. And as you're seeing with these executive orders, yes there is a lot that Biden could have done instead of clinging on to some false mythological sense of normalcy and thinking they could just smile and aviator glasses their way through it. And now here we are, even if Trump goes away, we're still stuck with overcoming the KKK Nazi culture, Trump and the mainstream media normalized.
(11:11):
How do we get through this? Number one, accept again that the most shocking crimes and their consequences are yet to come. Prepare yourself for nine 11 level events so you're as emotionally prepared as possible, not demoralized and terrorized because that's what they want. How do we know that's coming? This week's guests are the brilliant filmmakers behind the must watch True crime documentary, The Bibi Files, which takes us behind the scenes of Israel's investigation into the massive corruption of wannabe strongman Benjamin Netanyahu and his equally corrupt wife Sarah as Gaslit nation has long warned. Before October 7th, Netanyahu was looking for a war to clinging to power. Now he's in Washington DC trying to convince his ally Trump to let his war keep going. Why? Because as soon as the war is over, he faces corruption charges and prison time. And also Israel will investigate the security failures on his watch that led to October 7th, the worst loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust.
(12:23):
As this great film, The Bibi Files, shows you Netanyahu's own corruption and schemes to clinging to power. Laid the groundwork for the Hamas attack on October 7th by literally ensuring the transfer of financial support to Hamas. It's all there in the Biggie files. Why to sideline moderate Palestinian leadership undermine the two state solution and avoid peace between Palestinians and Israelis, thereby perpetuating the cycles of violence and trauma. It's horrific. You hear me talk about this on the show, but when you see it from these extraordinary hours of leaked footage that have come together in The BiBi Files, it is jaw dropping. You need to see this film. The BiBi Files is based on hours of leaked footage of the Netanyahu corruption investigation and includes Israeli prosecutors interviewing him and his allies like Major Trump supporter Miriam Edelson. She was responsible for one of the dumbest trades in NBA history when as co-owner of the Dallas Mavericks, she traded once in a generation talent Luka Dončić to the LA Lakers in exchange for Anthony Davis and a 2029 first round pick, shocking the sports world with how ridiculous the trade was.
(13:45):
I'll link to an actual sports analyst for the full breakdown as I have zero interest beyond the fact that it highlights the sheer idiocy of Miriam Edelson as emphasized in the BB files. If you want to see where America is headed, watch the BB files. The greatest threat to Israeli democracy as well as peace for both Palestinians and Israelis continues to be Bibi Netanyahu and his wife Sarah. Future historians will look back on America's constitutional crisis and our struggle against dictatorship and see Netanyahu as a central figure in the transnational crime syndicate that helped bring Trump back to power. Netanyahu knew his war with Hamas would keep him in power. He promised a long war. He's still trying to keep this war going. Despite the ceasefire, he carried out war crimes against Palestinians knowing it would drive a wedge between Trump's opposition. Given that Biden is a staunch Zionist, many Americans fell for it, voting against their own interests or abstaining from voting in the 2024 election helping bring Trump back to power.
(14:53):
Now Trump wants to continue Netanyahu's ethnic cleansing, turning Gaza into beachfront property just like his son-in-law. Jared Kushner wanted the coup destroying America. Did not happen overnight. It's been 40 years in the making. We documented it for years on Gaslit Nation and you can find a playlist of those episodes on our YouTube homepage. The far right needed 40 years to get us to this crisis point, which is why voting for the lesser evil was always the morally correct and urgent strategy to dig ourselves out of this crisis. Those on the left who didn't understand that got played by Netanyahu, by Trump, by Russian disinformation, by bot farms. You got played voting for the lesser evil sucks, but it matters. Oh, it matters. And now many are finally seeing why. I have no doubt that those who convinced themselves they were noble are now scared out of their minds.
(15:50):
Those who try to convince you that Biden and Trump are the same are now scared out of their minds. Trump just set the first plane of human beings to his concentration camp at Guantanamo Bay. No oversight, only cruelty as of long warned, this is going to be a magnet for sadist and sexual abuse, including of children and our tax dollars are paying for it all because some idiots on the left didn't grasp that we didn't get here overnight. This has been a 40 year coup and we won't get out of it overnight. Voting for the lesser evil wasn't a feel-good exercise. It was a strategic moral imperative. They convinced themselves it was fashionable not to vote, to vote for Jill Stein and to spread that disinformation on their platforms, abusing the trust of their own stack audiences. And now like many MAGA voters, they'll be forced to wake up to what they've done.
(16:44):
They got played, they played themselves. And yes, the Democratic Party establishment sucks, but that too won't change overnight. The strategy was always vote for the lesser evil primary, the hell out of worthless Dems and strengthen progressive grassroots infrastructure in the all important state level because the only way we get out of this crisis is through building political power. Political power is non-negotiable. More on that in future episodes as we have some big races this year, the ones who are terrorizing us, they have political power, so we need to chip away at that and build our own. And yes, part of that strategy requires voting for the lesser evil because we did not get into this tragedy overnight. It's been 40 years in the making. The far right had a long game. The Democrats did not. The Democrats did not. And now here we are for now here to help us make sense of where America is headed using the example of Netanyahu and his wife, Sarah's corruption is Alexis Bloom, director of The BB Files and producer Alex Gibney, who is also working on a documentary on Luigi Mangione and the corruption of the healthcare industry.
(17:55):
I'll drop a link of where you can watch The BiBi Files in the show notes.
(17:58):
So many questions for you both. How did you get this footage and why do you think it was sent to you?
Alex Gibney (18:14):
I got the footage and I got a message on Signal one day saying, would you be interested in some footage about Netanyahu? It was pretty vague. I get a lot of messages on signal offering me stuff and often the stuff is sketchy at best, but sometimes it's for real. And so I pulled on the thread engaged with a source who told me that in their possession was hundreds of hours of police interrogation videos involving the Netanyahu corruption case. Would I be interested? Yes. I then proceeded and got them. I downloaded them and then realized I needed to figure out somebody who could really tell me with some level of detail what was going on in them. I don't speak Hebrew and while I was familiar with the corruption case, I wasn't that deeply familiar with it. So I engaged with a journalist who became a co-producer on the project, Raviv Drucker, who is an expert in this particular case, but also in corruption in Israel.
(19:19):
And then once having been convinced by Raviv how valuable this material was, I thought we must get a great director. And the first person I thought of was Alexis. And Alexis and I had worked together before she had produced a film I did called We Steal Secrets about Julian Assange. And then I had produced a film that she had directed about Roger Ailes called Divide and Conquer. And Alexis has great experiences, a cinematography and also is a wonderful documentarian who had released also this year a film about Anita Pallenberg, which is an absolutely gorgeous film. So I felt Alexis would have the chops, the skill, and also the interest to do it. And luckily for me she said yes.
Alexis Bloom (20:04):
Lucky me.
Andrea Chalupa (20:05):
Yes, lucky all of us because this film just has to exist and it's so powerful and chilling. How did you feel when you received all this footage and why was this sent to you? Spoiler alert for everyone listening, watching this crime, Netanyahu clinging to power all these years, it's very clear whoever sent this to you was trying to force some sort of justice because you have a criminal at the helm of Israel just like we have here in the United States. And as one DOJ prosecutor said to me in the US our system's not designed to have a criminal in charge of it. And that's what's happened to Israel. And so it's very clear that this was all sent to you to force finally some justice accountability just through public awareness. Is that what you were feeling when you received this?
Alex Gibney (20:55):
It's what I felt. Mind you, this was before 10/7. This was when Israel was racked by the conflagration over Netanyahu's attempts to undermine the judiciary. But I think what was really compelling to me about it was the idea of this rigorously stage managed character who despite his actions had managed to present himself as a kind of grand international statesman, seeing the kind of venal petty manner in which he operates on a day-to-day basis, which is normally not available to us. Not only that, but seeing his wife, his son, and all the other people involved in this kind of corruption case. So it was really like that Wizard of Oz moment when Toto pulls back the curtain and you see the guy operating the levers as opposed to the great and magnificent Oz.
Andrea Chalupa (21:51):
Then Yahoo is just such a master manipulator, isn't he Alexis? And the way you present him is just, he's so calm and cool and that's part of his manipulation. It is. I
Alexis Bloom (22:01):
Mean it's something he's cultivated. He's practiced, he's Israel's longest serving prime minister and even at the beginning of his career he practiced, he got tapes, American coaching dialect tapes and kind of public speaking tapes and learn to gesticulate with his right hand because he's a left-hander and he read that people feel more at ease watching people who gesticulate with their right hand because it's dominant in our culture. So he's supremely aware of how he's coming across and I think at this stage of his career, he's very comfortable in that manipulation space as his friend Uzi Bella says, he lies left and right and he doesn't even know when he's lying. And his head of communication near Heitz who we also speak to, said that too. I mean actually every single person I spoke to who knows him, who's worked with him either on the record or off the record said he lies. There was not a single person I ever spoke to who said he didn't. Now there are probably some who would say he lies in the service of a greater goal, Israel's security. But I would say that's a slippery slope. Once you start justifying it, you're in a tenuous position where the means always just justify the end.
Alex Gibney (23:33):
The police call it noble cause corruption.
Andrea Chalupa (23:37):
What does that mean?
Alex Gibney (23:40):
Noble cause corruption is somebody who, because they allegedly in of a noble cause, you are permitted to do nasty things. And the reason the police have a phrase about it is it's the classic example of the detective who can't get the mobster living in a neighborhood so they plant drugs on him. But very quickly that kind of corruption escalates over time where now you're doing dirty deals, now you're running drugs and you're doing all this stuff with a belief that somehow you're invested in a noble cause when you become utterly corrupt.
Alexis Bloom (24:16):
I mean that's good Richard Nixon line, right? It's like when the president does it, it's not illegal.
Andrea Chalupa (24:21):
I felt like I was watching Nixon in your film, Viktor Yanukovych, Trump and the Trump family. It's just this strong man type that's just defiant and shameless just no shame. Why do you think other ministers and Israel's government, other officials have stepped down, have gone to prison for corruption, for bribery, but Netanyahu has been able to clinging on this whole time?
Alexis Bloom (24:49):
That's a good question. I think that other politicians stepped down because they respected the rule of law. Just on a simple sense. Ehud Olmert, stepped down who we interview in the film because he realized he was being investigated, he was about to be indicted and he said, I'm going to respect this investigation. I'm going to step down from my position and I'm going to fight it. He ended up going to jail. But everyone else sort of respected that if the police investigate you for X number of years, two years, four years, and then they came up with an indictment that there was sufficient cause for their at least to be a trial except for Netanyahu who believes that he's bigger than the state. And I think that hubris of I am the state, I am bigger than the state, also breeds a kind of like this big power magnet basically, that he has sort of sucked up other politicians into it.
(25:58):
Now most of the people around him are chosen on the basis of loyalty. I wouldn't say they're towering intellectuals or particularly experienced in their jobs. I mean that's when you speak to Israelis, they all despair like that. The Minister of Education said he doesn't read books. Those are the things that really bother them. But when you sort of bloviate to that extent and you go on and on about the deep state and how everyone's out to get you and everything and you've selected all these loyalists, then they sort of stay with you. So we've seen him bring out, I would say, the worst in everybody around him and he's enabled a lot of very extreme people.
Alex Gibney (26:45):
Yeah, I think there is a sense with politicians who do reckon with a moment where they have done something embarrassing and they choose to step down like Ulmer did. There is some understanding of the common wheel, the idea that they're part of a society that has norms and rules and reckoning. But when it comes to Netanyahu, the personal is the political. The political is the personal. There's only what satisfies him personally in terms of his own ambition. And I would say the same thing is true for Trump though it's probably for Trump its, it has more to do with personal enrichment, but nevertheless, it's all about them. Everything else is secondary.
Andrea Chalupa (27:26):
Your film shows this House of Cards crime scene through the leaked footage you received of these police interrogations and you see the best of Israel versus the worst of Israel. You see the men and women in the streets in Israel's largest protests leading up to, this was of course before October 7th. You see these men and women, prosecutors, law enforcement just trying to get the truth out of the net and Yahoos and all of their accomplices and this massive bribery scheme of just a flow of champagne and jewelry and presence. So it's such a flow of bribes that they had code names. It was just astonishing to watch. And so it's very, very clear about your film is that net and Yahoo is so smug in outsmarting everybody in staying in power. And he tried to gut the Supreme Court, you show it in your film and when that didn't work, he was funding Hamas and guitar to fund Hamas sidelining the moderate Palestinians, and now he has his forever war. My first question to you is on this topic and then I have a follow-up having to do with the us. My first question is do you fate that the ceasefire is going to hold, given that your film makes it clear that he still faces a criminal prosecution, he still faces prison. So do you have faith in this ceasefire? And my second question is your film showed Trump, is Trump going to lead us into war? Is Trump going to make America vulnerable for some sort of attack just like Netanyahu made Israel vulnerable?
Alexis Bloom (29:07):
There is this technically a ceasefire with Gaza, but just as the ceasefire was declared with Gaza, he opened a front in the West Bank. So it really hasn't been a ceasefire. One of the largest military operations has literally just been, it's almost like the price of the ceasefire in Gaza was that there was going to be an invasion in the West Bank. So there isn't a ceasefire. I don't know whether it will hold in Gaza. I would say probably not. I think the chances small, but the war continues whether it's in the West Bank or whether it'll be in Syria or he's going to propagate constant instability and a constant need for him to be front and center saying, I am Mr. Security and I will save you from this in terms of Trump and a war I with relish. I leave that to Alex.
Andrea Chalupa (30:08):
Your next film, unfortunately.
Alex Gibney (30:11):
I have no idea. I mean the truth is Trump says a lot of things, some of them he follows through on, some of them he doesn't. What is disconcerting though is that he's arming his cabinet with people whose only criterion for the jobs they seem to be about to occupy is personal loyalty to Trump. And that's a kind of terrifying thing. It's very much of a mob boss mentality. So it's not expertise. We're getting personal loyalty to Trump. And that's not a very good thing when you're starting to think about national security for the nation.
Alexis Bloom (30:50):
I mean I think the idea whether you declare whether he declares war on Greenland or Mexico or wherever it is, is one thing. But the idea of having an enemy, you've got to have an enemy. Trump will have an enemy. So whether it's Greenland or immigrants or trans people or whoever it is, it'll be a rotating cast. But like Netanyahu, he does need an enemy.
Alex Gibney (31:16):
He understands hate better than most human beings. He understands what a delicious narcotic hate can be. And so he finds ways to focus people on hatred rather than doing anything particularly constructive.
Andrea Chalupa (31:30):
It's very clear that this war cannot end because Netanyahu has promised a long war. He said, oh, maybe 10 years. And he has also said there can't be an investigation on the security failures that led to October 7th because that would investigate him. And so what efforts are you aware of the Israeli civil society to try to get him out, finally.
Alexis Bloom (31:59):
There's got to be an election. There are already people who are trying to gather evidence about October 7th and prepare for an accounting of why it happened. We know that because Netanyahu's people have already been accused of shredding documents. So we know that. So there are people sort of trying to do that. There's so many things that could potentially push him out. There's a huge issue of who serves in the military and whether the orthodox will ever serve in the military and that could be something. At one point I thought, oh my God, that's going to be the thing that toples him because when you say a forever war, that's a lot of Israelis going into the army. I don't think 10 years of that without the Orthodox serving is going to fly. But I think they'll have to agree to do it if it's 10 years of war. I think the Orthodox will have to serve
(32:56):
The little moments in your film that spoke volumes, you end with Netanyahu shredding papers. There's a subtle moment, I don't know if this was intentional, but it really irritated me where he's coughing in front of his investigators and doesn't even bother to cover his mouth. I was like, what an asshole. And the other star, the villain of this film is Sarah Netanyahu. My God, she is terrifying. The champagne queen. And could you speak a little bit about her and the influence that she has had on the rise of Netanyahu and his clinging of power?
(33:32):
She's a fantastic character just as far as a character study goes if she was fictional, but she's real life. And so whatever we find amusing or compelling about her is actually dangerous in real life. She has his ear, she knows his schedule. She's the expert in who can we trust, who's loyal. She has a degree in psychology. So she says to Benjamin, you're the cerebral history expert and I'm the mental psychology expert and I know who we can trust. So we wouldn't have put her in the film had she not been important politically. But she is a very complicated figure. Everyone says she's an alcoholic if the pink champagne invoices are anything to go by and he doesn't drink. So who else in the house is drinking them? She consumes a vast amount of alcohol, put it that way. She's important. She's there, she's aggressive and their codependent. So part of the work of the film was to try and take it away from this singular biopic. And I think people tend to write, whether it's books or films about Churchill and then they go Putin and they're always people around them. So I find it interesting to see who the people are around them. And sometimes it's wife.
Alex Gibney (35:10):
It's sort of suggested in the film, but not entirely explicated because the proof isn't there. But it's said by a lot of people in Israel that Netanyahu was offered a deal, a plea deal basically, but wouldn't take it or did take it, but then undid it once Sarah heard that he had taken it because she couldn't abide the idea that he would have to stay out of politics and therefore her perch, Israeli society would be lost. The other thing I find a moment that I find particularly nauseating in the film, not against the film, but what it reveals is the moment when the families of the hostages have to bow and scrape before Sarah Netanyahu and flatter her just so they can hope that she and her husband don't turn their back on them. Which to me is the grossest kind of personal venality for a pope.
Andrea Chalupa (36:08):
It's so authoritarian. And then the other very disturbing parts came from their offspring who like Murdoch's kid is worse than Murdoch more far right than Murdoch. He's like the Don Jr. of the Netanyahu's. Could you speak a little bit about yay Netanyahu, what his role is in this whole operation?
Alexis Bloom (36:29):
I mean, for a while, Yair was very important. I don't know about today. I think honestly, Benjamin has realized that he's a bit of a liability. So he's not as important today as he was then, but he was living at home with his parents online all day every day and advising his father on what to do online. Also watching for criticism and it's online criticism through Yair the Netanyahu's got involved in Walla, that website. And so unfortunately Yair was a big part of that case. I think that he pulled the family down into that by becoming mono monomaniacal about how his family was being covered and encouraging them to sort of take over the website because they knew the owner. So he was like, why are Walla writing about us like this? We know Shaul Elovitch and we know how to fix this. And the owner is right wing and it's wrong.
(37:30):
And they knew that Shaul Elovitch also was very badly in debt. So Yair has gotten his father into trouble before, but Benjamin doesn't have a cell phone and doesn't read online. So he relied on Yayir for a lot. And in his big election of 2015, a lot of people said it was because he went online, he went on Facebook to say, the Arabs are being bused to the poles in droves. If you want Israel for Israelis, you better vote for me. And he did that on a live Facebook feed and apparently it was instrumental in getting the vote out and that was all Yaya's idea. So Yayi has been a blessing at times and smart and savvy. And he's been probably a bit of a curse too since the war started. He hasn't been around. He went to Miami, which was odd. Most of the kids that age were called up and had to volunteer even if it's food distribution or something. And Yaya was in a very expensive apartment building in Miami throughout. So I dunno, at great expense to the taxpayer, he has a lot of security. But so I don't know why Benjamin sort of siloed him there. There's, there's a lot of rumors about how crazy he is. There's a big rumor in Israel that he tried to hit his father. It's a rumor I'll say, but I've heard it from probably a dozen people unconnected. So I dunno, something big happened there and Z, he went to Miami.
Andrea Chalupa (39:08):
And that moment in the documentary where it was revealed that Netanyahu would like his son to take over from him as though this is a dynasty of royalty. And that's how they've captured Israel. They see themselves as this royal family that's entitled to all these extremely expensive gifts. And the story, the Walla website you mentioned, for our listeners who haven't seen this, the BB files yet, they must have watch parties. The Walla website is owned by a friend of the Netanyahu's who desperately needed money. The Netanyahu's hooked them up with money in exchange for the Walla website, which has a predominantly young audience running all of this pro net inya coverage, only flattering pictures of Sarah Netanyahu and on and on that list goes. And that was one of the big scandals that exposed him to a legal liability, which he's dragging out. And no surprise that Sarah is a nightmare to work for. That was brilliantly shown. What didn't make it into the film? Cause I can't even imagine the stuff that you had a debate over.
Alexis Bloom (40:09):
Oh, loads. I mean that housekeeper had a lot more to say incidences of Sarah throwing things and breaking things at home, and Benjamin having to carry her upstairs and put her to bed and stuff. But it just seemed to be too much of a focus puller. There's a lot of entertaining stuff like that, but it is really about waging the wall. So we didn't want to get pulled down this other rabbit hole of just disliking them so much, which you could do. But it'ss not really about that. It's about him and his alliance with the extreme right wing and the way they wage war. So we had to lose a lot of stuff about Sarah, a lot of stuff about Yaya. We had a great scene that we shot in a cigar shop, which was amazing about these two cigar guys who sell cigars in Tel Aviv explaining how expensive Netanyahu cigars are and how they're saying it's top of the range. We don't even sell them normally here. I can't afford them. A lot of other sort of fun stuff that wasn't absolutely intrinsic to the storytelling, but it's already a long film. So we had serious business of the war in Gaza to get to.
Andrea Chalupa (41:32):
And in terms of the Netanyahu's net worth, is it fair to say that they're oligarchs? They certainly enjoy an oligarch lifestyle as much as they try to hide it. Do you have an idea of what their net worth might be after his 20 years of public service?
Alexis Bloom (41:46):
I don't think they're oligarchs. I mean, who the hell knows? Do they have money squirreled away in Panama? People talk about that. We don't know. That's the truth. We don't know what they display is not an oligarchs lifestyle. They don't have a private plane. They have a very nice big flash weekend house with a swimming pool. Actually, I would say they're probably not, if you were an oligarch, you wouldn't need to rely on other people to give you champagne and cigars. I think that's almost like they want to be, but they're not.
Andrea Chalupa (42:23):
Did you come across the Kushners in your research? They're old family friends. He used to used to stay at Jared's house when he was coming to the us. Did that pop up at any of your research?
Alexis Bloom (42:35):
It didn't. Not to do with the corruption trials, no.
Andrea Chalupa (42:39):
What response have you had to this film from Israel?
Alex Gibney (42:44):
Well, it's been now we had to make an agreement as part of making the film. Part of my deal with the source was that we wouldn't cause the film to be released in Israel because the source could go to jail. The police interrogation videos, a run afoul of a privacy law in Israel where you're not allowed to be videotaped as part of an official proceeding and have that be broadcast without your permission. So we had to agree not to distribute it there. That said, ever since the film was released, it's been pirated massively there. And I think some people had told us people aren't going to be that interested in this in Israel. They know it all. Well, that hasn't turned out to be true at all. I think that the hunger to see this behind the scenes material of these characters who so carefully cultivate their image was and continues to be like catnip.
Andrea Chalupa (43:43):
No, absolutely. And question about the security measures that you have to take to protect your sources. We're entering this even darker time where you have mainstream media bending the knee to the Trump administration. Disney paid that $15 million in a case that they could have fought and potentially won. So it's a very chilling time of self-censorship and conformity. And that means independent media, independent filmmakers like yourselves are crucially more important. What sort of measures do you take to handle sensitive material too? You mentioned people reach out to you on signal, but then you download this material. How do you know you're not downloading spyware? How do you protect yourselves and protect your sources? And especially in this climate?
Alex Gibney (44:33):
We try to take informed risks. We examine material. We have a reasonably good IT department. We consult with people who are very, very good on this stuff. We do the best we can. That doesn't mean that ultimately we're not vulnerable. We all are and we do keep our eyes open.
Andrea Chalupa (44:51):
From a filmmaking standpoint. You deal with such heavy topics and the way you release this information, it's hypnotic. It pulls you in. What were your creative influences, Alexis, on this? Because some of the scenes were just absolutely captivating the way you presented them.
Alexis Bloom (45:09):
Gosh, that's a very good question. I mean, I can't think of a specific film that influenced me. I mean, you watch a lot of films and you know what works and what doesn't. So a slow build is always great. I find humor is always great. I love Alex's film. I think Alex was one of the first people to show you that serious journalism can be entertaining as well. The Navalny film was fantastic, very serious, very entertaining. There's a lot of good journalism out there that is fact checked and rigorous and not boring. So I think you just want to be on that side of the mark. If you're going to ask people to spend almost two hours of their time today watching a film. It can't be boring. It can't be feel like eating your vitamins kind of thing, your spinach. And that requires money and it requires distribution and it requires a great editor. Andy Grieve edited this film. He was fantastic. He's also edits a lot of Alex's films. Halil Fra also edited it. You just got to have a really great team who are really dedicated. And I think if you're lucky enough to have that, that's half the battle.
Alex Gibney (46:30):
I mean, that's the defense in this time is to tell great stories. And those great stories will ultimately find a way because there are tremendous hindrances to distribution of this kind of serious material. We learned not too long ago, just after Mark Zuckerberg made his famous statement about how now he was going to be so much more free speech that they were banning our ads on meta we couldn't get them through. So that gives you some sense of how hard it is to get this kind of content out, even though people really, really, really want to see it.
Alexis Bloom (47:08):
And even though it's on the front page every day, Israel, it's not something people are unfamiliar with. It's a daily discussion anyway.
Andrea Chalupa (47:18):
You lay it all out there perfectly. There have to be watch parties. Are you doing any grassroots campaigning around this? I know you got on the Oscar shortlist, which I'm so happy about. And what is the future life of this film? Because obviously this was a core issue of the 2024 election. It likely is what we're seeing so far that it contributed to why Kamala Harris lost such a close election Biden's policy, obviously towards Israel and Gaza. So what is the future of this film? I mean, this is something that has to wake people up, as I've been saying on Gaslit Nation. If you care about Israel, if you care about democracy, the future of Israel, you have to hold Netanyahu accountable. And it's still such a divisive issue just having these conversations. So what do you see as the future of the film and sort of working with the grassroots that's so engaged now around these issues?
Alexis Bloom (48:10):
It's streaming. It's available to see a jolt.film for 12 bucks, so anyone can watch it. We are doing festivals, we're taking it around the world. We are doing screenings, private screenings. We're community groups and stuff. But I don't know. It's up to, I think once it develops a momentum, it'll build and it'll build and it'll build. If you have a big streamer on your side, they spend a lot of money upfront and they make a big splash. And we didn't have the resources to do that. So it's a slower build and it's word of mouth. And there's people who write to me every day wanting to see it, where can I see it? So we're just sort of keeping up the drum beat basically.
Andrea Chalupa (48:58):
You should screen it at the International Criminal Court.
Alex Gibney (49:01):
Good idea.
Andrea Chalupa (49:04):
So I want to ask you about the times we live in. Are you surprised that we are here? I mean you've Alex obviously all your work sort of warning that things were headed here. Are you surprised now in this moment?
Alex Gibney (49:18):
Yeah, I'm a little bit surprised that we're here. I'm a little bit surprised that we've reached such a level of what I would call post-truth, that folks like Netanyahu and Trump have managed to invest so much in monetizing vitriol that they create a kind of tribalist politics that is really, really, really taking us in a terrible direction. But the biggest concern for me is this willingness to disbelief. We're living in a moment now where everything that Orwell warned us about as he was observing the Soviet Union is now coming true, but in a kind of proto, capitalist, authoritarian manner. And yeah, it's surprising to me and deeply concerning.
Alexis Bloom (50:06):
Yeah.
Andrea Chalupa (50:09):
I hate to talk about myself, but you two, some of my heroes who have to tell you, I made a movie that features George Oral as a character.
Alex Gibney (50:15):
You did good.
Andrea Chalupa (50:16):
Yes. It's called Mr. Jones. It is the story of the young Welsh journalist who was his life and career to expose Stalin's genocide, fa in Ukraine. The Welsh journalist was beautifully played by James Norton and Joseph Moley plays George Orwell, who's writing the words of Animal Farm that narrate this young man's story to get the truth out in the world. And it was directed by Agneshka Holland. And I'm going to send her a link to your film. She has to watch this as well.
Alex Gibney (50:46):
She's a great director. Phenomen. I didn't think she would produce that. Anyway, that's really exciting.
Andrea Chalupa (50:51):
Yeah, I wrote and produced it and one of my very first works as a journalist, printed works in this alternative weekly in Portland, Oregon. Was a review of your film Enron, the smartest guys in the room. And I'm very happy to say it was a glowing review, a link to it. And it is what set me on my course of saying, oh wow, things are really corrupt out there. So I better have a podcast one day fighting all that corruption. So I just want to say, Alex, you planted so many seeds, so much inspiration of so many folks out there. You've probably given birth to countless projects of people following in your footsteps. What a nice thing.
Alex Gibney (51:29):
Pay it forward.
Andrea Chalupa (51:30):
Yeah, we always try to. So I wanted just to close off by saying as dark as things are, and given that you both have such a close lens on the darkness out there to bring light to it, what is giving you hope right now for humanity in this moment of time? If anything,
Alex Gibney (51:46):
There's that line from dust ky, the darker the night, the bright of the stars. And I do see, particularly in the non-mainstream journalistic outlets, a lot of powerful investigative reporting, which is really, really impressive to me, considering the constraints that they're under. But young people working very hard to do tremendously inspiring work. So yeah, that stuff really gives me a lot of hope.
Alexis Bloom (52:18):
There was a priest today who gave that sermon. Oh, the bishop. Yeah, the bishop. She gives me hope. That was fantastic. Just quietly. Marianne Edgar. There you go. Marianne Edgar gives me hope that she would just quietly stand up there in front of them all and call truth to power in a beautiful, restrained and dignified way. I was like, that's got to happen all the time. We got to make that happen.
Andrea Chalupa (52:44):
Yeah. Speak the truth. Alexis, what are some projects that you're working on that we could track and have you back on the show to discuss?
Alexis Bloom (52:52):
I have just finished this and I am taking a break.
Andrea Chalupa (52:57):
Good for you. Yeah. And Alex, I read that you are working on a documentary about the Internet's boyfriend, Luigi Mangione.
Alex Gibney (53:07):
Yeah, I'm producing it. I'm not directing it, but yes, we're working on it. Obviously it's about him, but it's also about the company of his victim. It gets into that territory,
Andrea Chalupa (53:17):
A crime conspiracy by UnitedHealthcare.
Alex Gibney (53:20):
Right.
Andrea Chalupa (53:20):
Wonderful. Wonderful. So we'll be watching that as well. Well, thank you both so very much. Everyone go see the BB files. It lays it all out there and have watch parties tell your friends. It's an exceptional, powerful film. And it also shows the danger that we are in here at home in America if we don't stand in our truth and fight back.
Alex Gibney (53:41):
Great. Thank you so much.
Andrea Chalupa (53:51):
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(54:59):
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