How to End Russia’s War
Pepsi or Coke? Both brands are making money in Russia despite promises to unwind operations. For Russia’s war to end, companies must be named and shamed to finally leave the Russian market, and sanctions must be enforced. In this week’s Gaslit Nation, Andrea is joined by Russian mafia expert Olga Lautman and analyst Monique Camarra of the Kremlin File podcast to discuss how to end Russia’s war, not just give Ukraine enough to stay in the fight.
Peter Dugas, New England Regional Director of the Citizens’ Climate Lobby, also stops by to discuss the common ground behind the headlines of the climate crisis. Young conservatives in growing numbers embrace science and are on the front lines of a bipartisan movement to end our self-destructive dependence on fossil fuels. Want to be part of the movement? Join the Citizens’ Climate Lobby in Washington, DC, June 8-11 to meet with members of Congress on both sides of the aisle – get training on how to demand sensible and urgent climate crisis legislation. Sign up by May 20th here: https://citizensclimatelobby.org/climate-change-conferences/summer/
This week’s bonus show looks at why the average American voter should care about the growing protests in Georgia against a Russian law put in place by Russian-backed politicians. (Sound familiar?) The bonus show also answers questions from our listeners at the Democracy Defender level and higher. The discussion includes the hypocrisy of America’s TikTok ban, the importance of stating one’s values and goals in the fight for our democracy, how the Israel-Palestine War impacts Ukraine coverage and why that matters, and more! To join the conversation, submit questions to our regular Q&As, bonus shows, get all shows ad-free and invites to virtual events, and more, subscribe to Gaslit Nation at the Truth-teller level or higher!
Thank you to everyone who supports the show – we could not make Gaslit Nation without you!
Show Notes:
Want to plant seeds of change? Join Citizens’ Climate Lobby in Washington, DC June 8-11 to meet with members of Congress on both sides of the aisle to demand urgent action on the climate crisis. Sign up here by May 20th: https://citizensclimatelobby.org/climate-change-conferences/summer/
Join Gaslit Nation and Kremlin File for a live taping on June 18th 12pm ET live-taping! The Zoom link will be sent out the morning of the event to Gaslit Nation’s supporters at the Truth-teller level or higher on Patreon
Find out which companies are still doing business in Russia: Leave-Russia.org
Jamala - 1944 (Ukraine) 2016 Eurovision Song Contest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxS6eKEOdLQ
Jamala’s Music Video for Mr. Jones (Ціна правди/”The Price of Truth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6F6P3tTJw8
Eurovision: Isreali contestant booed as thousands protest outside venue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEb1AeRR7Nk
French artist disrupts rehearsal at EuroVision to give a speech for peace https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWU69VCaNjY
Ayman Mohyeldin:
Dr. Hamawy, a similar question to you. You've certainly had the chance to see combat in Iraq and operate in Iraq. It's something that none of us probably have ever experienced. How does what you are seeing now in the conditions that you are operating in compare to other war zones that you've lived through?
Dr. Adam Hamawy:
I've seen combat and war wounds and have done surgery with humanitarian and disaster relief now for almost 20 years. And this is nothing like this. The injuries, the amount of children that I've seen is just unprecedented. I take care of more people under the age of 13 than I've ever taken care of before. I've done more amputations and seen more traumatic amputations of children's than I've seen during my entire career in the last two weeks. And that's what's really making a difference. In Iraq there is some civilian casualties. Here it's primarily just children, women, elderly. I mean, today I took care of four children, one woman and two people over the age of 60. And this is not typical of the wars that I've experienced in the past. This is really the main. This is not a war. This is just complete utter destruction. There's nothing left. I was able to actually venture out of the hospital and there's nothing left in the area around us. It's just flattened, completely flattened.
Andrea Chalupa:
Hey everyone. Welcome to Gaslit Nation. I am your host, Andrea Chalupa, a journalist and filmmaker and the writer and producer of the journalistic thriller Mr. Jones, about Stalin's genocide, famine in Ukraine, a genocide that continues to this day happening now under Putin. So make sure to watch it because the Kremlin really hates this film and I love that. I love that. All right, everyone, 174 days until the US presidential election, November 5th, 2024. We have very limited time left. And remember, there are no do-overs. There's no waking up from the nightmare. Should Trump, Netanyahu, Putin, Jared, Ivanka, get their White House back and unleash even more destruction, mass death, chaos, grifting, kleptocracy than we're suffering under now. You think things are bad now? Oo, they can get a whole lot worse. And we know that. We know that because we talk a lot about history on the show. I've studied authoritarianism now for decades.
I can say that now, decades, so it's real. This is all real and this is why Gaslit Nation exists to stop this from happening. So do you have a plan to vote? Are you talking to your family and friends about making a plan to vote? Have you all together collectively holding hands linked elbow to elbow, gone to elbow gaslitnationpod.com and checked out the easy to follow steps on our 2024 survival guide? Because it's going to take all of us to stop the Christian nationalist, long awaited strong man to overthrow American democracy. They've had a decades long plan. They've been looking for their strong man. They even searched Russia and post-Soviet states studying what dictators did there. If you want to understand what I'm talking about in reference to that, go to my interview with Steve Ujlaki, who did the must watch film, Bad Faith on the Rise of Christian Nationalism in America.
Next week we're running a very special episode. It is the Project 2025 super special featuring the great journalist Ann Nelson, who wrote The Shadow Network, all about Christian Nationalism's long game for ushering in a quote unquote, Christian Taliban. They know this, they're proud of this. They want their tradwives, they want us to be a force birth nation. They want to get rid of our right to vote as women. They are open about this, they gloat about this and it's all in the massive document they've put online called Project 2025. No, they are not hiding it because they feel very safe. This is the Klan without their hoods. And Donald Trump backed by Russia has normalized all of this that has taken over one of the two major parties in the US Republican Party. That's what it is now, a Christian nationalist stronghold backed by Russia.
All right, so our opening clip was Dr. Adam Hamawy, a US army veteran who famously saved a senator Tammy Duckworth's life after her helicopter crash in Iraq. He is one of 20 American doctors trapped in the European hospital and Rafah of southern Gaza where countless, countless people, the vast majority of course refugees displaced by Israel's scorched earth collective punishment of Palestinians facing dehydration and famine. And that is all made worse by Israel closing the border with Rafah, refusing to let aid trucks through. And whatever aid has been stopped at the border for many weeks now, the food is rotting, it's expired when it finally reaches people, it is a deliberate starvation. This is being done by Netanyahu who's a wannabe strongman, aligned with Putin, aligned with Trump. He is a bad faith actor. This is deliberate cruelty, deliberate cruelty, and the people of Israel, anybody who loves Israel in their heart and soul needs to wake up because you are part of the solution.
You need to open your eyes to who Netanyahu truly is and demand that there be early elections, demand brand new leadership in Israel because Netanyahu is doing this genocide, carrying out a genocide of Palestinians to cling onto power and to further divide his opposition in the hopes that all the horror that he's unleashing is going to lead to suppressing the vote, keeping Biden out of office in November. Why? Because he wants Trump back. With Trump back in the White House, my God, Trump and Kushner, they get to turn Gaza into Israeli beachfront real estate with Trump towers and the Russians will make themselves at home there too. So that's what this is about. Netanyahu is getting a lot of benefits out of the atrocities that he's unleashing there. Biden and Blinken have both called out Israel threatening to do a total block of military aid if they continue.
That needs to actually happen. That should have happened months ago to save countless lives. In addition to that, Blinken was very clear in saying that Israel's scorched-earth collective punishment war is not winning against Hamas. In fact, Hamas is coming back in Gaza. Hamas is not in Rafah and Israel has no plan at all to protect civilians. And one thing I want to point out, there's some misinformation disinformation going out on the internet. The UN recently released numbers on casualties based on the information that they have. And they said that the number of confirmed casualties of Palestinian civilians comes to around 25,000 people. And you have idiots online who are saying, "Oh, that's low numbers, less than the 35,000 or so that local authorities under Hamas rule have been citing, which is closer to 34,000 35,000."
Well, I want to just make clear for everyone who doesn't know how to read a graph, doesn't know how to read a chart, that UN number that recently came out, they're talking about confirmed, confirmed, confirmed meaning they're able to identify a body as belonging to a deceased individual. Confirmed. So they're around 25,000 confirmed casualties of civilians and another 10,000 or so bodies that are just so mangled or still trapped below rubble that have not been identified. The numbers are consistent with the numbers we've already received so far from local authorities on the ground in Palestine. So it's atrocious what's happening. It is annihilation and it needs to stop. And any honest person driven by empathy would know that that is a fact that Israel has gone way too far. We knew this was going, this was headed there. Go back to the early episodes of October 2023 from Gaslit Nation. We called all of this. We were very early in calling it a genocide too.
We're very early in saying that Netanyahu is a bad faith actor who came to power through terrorism and he's backed by Russia. So no one should have any faith in his operation. It's just to save Netanyahu and his corrupt family. That's how strong men operate. They're dangerous. And yes, and if you're wondering if he's doing this deliberately to undermine our own democracy here at home to bring Trump back, yes, the answer is yes. So we are going to have an action packed show today, Monique and Olga of Kremlin File, that's Monique Camarra, a wonderful analyst out of Europe based in Italy and Russian mafia expert Olga Lautman of the essential Kremlin File podcaster on the show to give us the latest on Putin's genocide in Ukraine and what we need to all do collectively to stop it and more and talking about the Kremlin's war against all of us and how we need to be aware of that and how to fight back. Then this exciting show concludes with a must listen to interview brought to me thanks to one of our many brilliant Gaslit Nation listeners in the Gaslit Nation community.
Thank you, thank you, thank you so much. This Gaslit Nation listener is involved with the Citizens Climate Lobby, which is on the front lines of demanding an end to fossil fuels. Citizens Climate Lobby is having a big lobby day in Washington DC this June, June 8th through 11th. That's June 8th through 11th. So try to get over to Washington DC then to join them. You'll get training, you'll meet other like-minded people from across the country with conservatives, liberals, people from across the political spectrum United. Remember, we are far more united on this issue than we are divided. That is why you want to stick around for this urgent conversation and don't believe the culture wars. Don't believe the dire headlines. Americans are believing their eyes and ears when it comes to the climate crisis. So please join in Citizens Climate Lobby June 8th through 11th in Washington DC to be part of the solution and plant some must needed seeds of change.
Look out for how to sign up for this in the show notes for this week's episode. Longtime Gaslit Nation listeners know that the fossil fuels industry is behind so many bad things in the world from Bush, Cheney's destructive war in Iraq, which pumped Halliburton Cheney's former company full of billions of dollars, nearly $40 billion in federal contractors earning a windfall of 85 million in Halliburton's Iraqi operations alone. And then you have the fossil fuel industry protecting the filibuster through their lobbyist, Joe Manchin, which blocked Biden's progressive Build Back Better agenda, which would've lifted countless people out of poverty and done so much more to really revolutionize our country with a stronger social safety net. The fossil fuel industry also has funded the rise of Christian nationalism through many entities, including the Koch Brothers dark money political network. You can go back to the Great Bad Faith documentary and Anne Nelson's book, the Shadow Network for more on that.
And fossil fuels also are one of the largest financiers of terrorism. Look at gas station dictatorship, Russia with all of its many invasions and genocides in recent years and propping up several dictatorships, including Venezuela, which has caused a manmade famine creating one of the worst refugee crisis in the world, which is of course flooding our border with asylum seekers who need basic help. And that is all done deliberately to further inflame a culture war here in the US. Weaponizing these poor asylum seekers who deserve better from not just their own government Venezuela, but the world. So fossil fuels are the root of so much evil on this planet. So I encourage all of our listeners to pay close attention to this excellent interview. It is with Peter Dugas, the New England Regional Director of the Citizens Climate Lobby. You're going to learn a lot of exciting things there, including what makes Peter hopeful for our country and our planet in these very crucial years ahead. All right, everyone. Now without further ado, here is my conversation with Olga Lautman and Monique Camarra of the Kremlin File podcast.
All right everyone, I am with Russian Mafia expert, Olga Lautman and analyst based in Italy Monique Camarra of the Kremlin File podcast. And guess what, before we jump into it, we are doing a live taping of Kremlin File and Gaslit Nation on June 18th at noon eastern. So if you support Gaslit Nation on Patreon or you support Kremlin File on Substack, you can be in the audience of our live taping and throw questions at us in the Q&A. Thank you all who support these shows in a time of rampant Kremlin Republican Party disinformation. Now let's get to it.
We just had a big old Eurovision. It was spicier than ever. You had France disrupting the rehearsal to give a big pro-peace speech. You had Israel boycotted, but still stayed in the competition and performed to the whole stadium booing and chanting, "Free Palestine." You had Ukraine a Eurovision favorite because Ukraine is on the front lines of defending democracy.
Monique Camarra:
Always. Always.
Andrea Chalupa:
And so Ukraine came in third, third place. Yay. And I know that their performance was incredibly moving with cluster bombs, the images of cluster bombs going through the sky. And who were the performers of Ukraine again? Olga, I know you have-
Monique Camarra:
Yeah. It was-
Andrea Chalupa:
Monique.
Monique Camarra:
Alena and Alena and Jerry Hale and they sang Teresa & Maria and it was absolutely... The whole performance was stunning. So it wasn't just the song itself, it was everything about the staging, all of the symbolism because they were singing about women warriors. So this was really, really moving first of all. And Ukraine actually has a very long history. They are the only country in Eurovision because we know that there were 31 countries that participate all the way from Australia to the Baltics and Scandinavia actually Iceland as well. And there's only 25 that make it to the actual finale. Ukraine has made it always. It's the only country that actually has made it to all of the finales.
And another fun fact is that they've won three times. First one that's right was in 2004 with Ruslana singing Wild Dances and in 2016 with Jamala, and then we know in 2022 with the Kalush Orchestra, which was with Stefania, which was absolutely amazing. So they have a long history with Eurovision. They began singing and participating in 2004. That was the year based... Oh sorry, 2003. It's not just you keep track. The one thing that, I mean, look, Eurovision is catchy, it's big costumes and really-
Andrea Chalupa:
It's launched [inaudible 00:17:06]. It launched ABBA.
Monique Camarra:
Yeah, exactly. They did an ABBA tribute as well on Saturday night. So that was tons of fun.
Andrea Chalupa:
Is it this-
Monique Camarra:
I love watching because... Yeah, yeah, that's right. Malmo, the Malmo Arena, but it's just about all countries from so many different places. The Caucasus, as I said before, all the way over to the Baltics, and it's like the Olympics, right? Of songs and it just great scene. Real, oh no, cheesy. I mean look, you get the techno dance house version, heavy metal. You've got ballads. Those are the ones that everybody loves. France for example, did fantastic song with Salome.
Andrea Chalupa:
Let me just point out, the reason why Ukraine has such a history of doing extremely well at Eurovision is because when you look at the artists that win, Ruslana, she lived on Maidan during the freezing cold of the Euro-Maidan protests, she became a voice of the Euro-Maidan revolution. If you look at Jamala, she's a Crimean Tatar who has used her global platform to raise awareness of Russia's brutal occupation of Crimea, including the atrocities have carried out against the Tatars, an indigenous group of Crimea. As I keep saying on Gaslit nation, art is survival, art is resistance, and Ukraine exemplifies that. Ukrainian resistance, Ukrainian history, Ukrainian national identity gets passed down through generations for centuries through Ukraine's artists. That is so key. So right now you have viral videos of Ukrainians being evacuated from Kharkiv, which is under bombardment by the Russians because it's right there on the border with Russia.
And you have one viral video of an elderly woman reading Taras Shevchenko, the Ukrainian Walt Whitman. And she's reading the words of his famous poem of freedom testament. And so you see this video of these boys, these military guys driving her out of Kharkiv for her protection and she's reading the words of Ukraine's Walt Whitman. Because that is how Ukraine operates. That is the soul of the nation is art as survival. So when you hear me say this on the show all the time to you that art is survival, make art, the fascists are coming for us. Free your mind, liberate yourself, focus on our shared liberation and freedom through the power of art. Ukraine exists today because of the power of art and it shows in Eurovision the artists that win a Ukrainian Eurovision are resistance fighters.
Monique Camarra:
And can I also say they sing. A lot of countries choose to sing in their own language. So for Ukraine to be able to sing, for example, one of the songs 2021, Shum was I think probably the best song I've ever heard in Ukrainian. Is a form, as you were saying, Andrea, public diplomacy that brings out the best in a nation touching each one of us emotionally, but also conveying those messages that are so important for all of us that keep us together and keep us connected. A lot of people diss Eurovision, but I'm...
Andrea Chalupa:
Diss Eurovision if you want, but for countries like Ukraine that have had to really struggle to get the world's attention. Because growing up as Ukrainian American, I can tell you up until 2013 when my dawn happened, people just switched in their minds. A lot of Americans Westerners switched their minds that I was Russian because they didn't understand what Ukraine was. So stages, global stages like Eurovision matter, those smaller countries.
Monique Camarra:
They do. Yeah.
Andrea Chalupa:
And in 2016, I want to point out Jamala the Crimean Tatar, she won with a song called 1944 about the forced deportation of her people, the Crimean Tatars by Stalin, where tens and tens of thousands died in that forced deportation and Jamala was extraordinary. That song is so haunting and I'll link to in the show notes, people have to listen to it. Jamala sang the song, the Price of Truth for my film, Mr. Jones, she did a release video for my film Mr. Jones, and I'll link to that also in the show notes. I was incredibly honored that she did that.
Monique Camarra:
That's so cool.
Andrea Chalupa:
Mr. Jones was a Ukrainian production. We filmed in Ukraine, we had a lot of Ukrainian talent in front of and behind the camera.
Olga Lautman:
I did see the performance and it literally broke me into tears. I am so used to looking at war crimes and photos of castration and all the horrible torture that is happening in Ukraine. And to see these kids, kids, I mean they should be singing about love and happy things for them to have to sing about heartbreak, about pain, about suffering, even though ultimately the song also is hope and women's strength. But the fact is that this is what Russia has done to our youth and it's being shown through culture, but it's also being shown through like in the archive, a friend of mine was walking by a playground and literally there are air raid sirens. You hear explosions in the background and the kids are so desensitized to what's happening that they continue playing.
This is not normal. I mean this is a whole generation of people who will grow up, who have had their life robbed from them because of a terrorist neighbor. And I mean every other country is thinking about happiness, about normal things, and we have to have cluster bombs falling to show the world that there is a war despite all media turning away from it. It stopped me in my tracks and really moved me because this, what Russia has done to all our kids, it's reprehensible and unforgivable and they must pay for this and they must be defeated. And every single last Russian needs to be thrown off Ukrainian soil.
Andrea Chalupa:
Okay, so ladies, Anthony Blinken has landed in Kiev. He is promising to make a big announcement on Wednesday because he is trolling our show because he knows we come out on Tuesdays. So you're not going to know what that big announcement is. And maybe I'll link to it on our social media. I'll do a little update, but Zelensky has been pushing for Patriot Missiles because thanks to Mike Johnson's deliberate six-month delay, Russia has gotten a stronger foothold in its invasion of Ukraine, and so they've had to lower the enlistment age to get more soldiers to defend the country. What in your views does Ukraine need from the world in order to finally end Russia's war and genocide in Ukraine, and liberate all of its territory?
Olga Lautman:
Blinken made a surprise visit, and like you said, he's making an announcement for Wednesday. My one hope that comes in his announcement besides the Patriot missiles is for US permission to allow Ukraine to strike strategic targets inside of Russia. There is absolutely no reason that Ukraine should have its hands tied behind its back. So now Blinken arrives in Kiev on a surprise visit again reaffirming the United States support for Ukraine, which is wonderful. Again, the keywords missing are that we will be with you for defeat of Russia. I mean, this is a goal. Not as long as it takes, not we'll be here and we'll do whatever we can, but there has to be an end goal. And the end goal is defeat of Russia and liberating every ounce of territory. Now, there is a surprise announcement on Wednesday that he's making, and I hope honestly that part of it includes allowing Ukraine to use US weapons to strike strategic targets in Russian territory.
The UK just allowed it and I think it's extremely important. But on a bigger picture, Ukraine needs all the weapons that they can get, everything. They need full air cover, they need NATO to stop watching missiles flying over NATO territory and shoot down the Russian missiles. They need... Estonia just proposed sending troops as non-combat to Lviv to free Ukrainian troops. They're protecting the border, that area of the country. So we need that. They don't have to be in a combat role, but frankly, we see what happens on country's help. Israel had a hundred-something missiles and drones launched at it, which is a very normal day for Ukraine. And five countries came in together to shoot down the missiles. I think 90% were shot down before he even reached Israeli territory, including Saudi Arabia and Jordan. So we need neighbors who will help because Russia has made it very clear and not just now, not post-22, I understand people woke up to the fact there's a war in 22, but there's a war going on European soil since 2007.
They annexed 20% of Georgia. They annexed at that point by 2014 7% of Ukraine, they have carried out hybrid warfare across Europe and they have made it very clear on all their talk shows from government officials to propagandists that they will take back countries that they deem as theirs. So that means the Baltics to NATO, that means Czechia, that means Kazakhstan. We see what's happening in Georgia now and this is why if Europe wants to avoid a war, for God's sakes end this in Ukraine and that's it and provide everything that Ukraine needs to end it because way more costly if Russian tanks are rolling through Europe. And it'll be costly not only in the amount of deaths that will be suffered by your other European countries in the US, but also in terms of population, their population, the damage to their population. So give Ukraine everything.
They can end this. They will end this, but they need weapons and they need air cover and they need planes and they need everything. And not only a one time deal, it needs to be that this is... You can't send 1 million rounds of ammunition and then go dry for seven months because then the military strategists in Ukraine are having a problem of knowing how to ratio for their operations per month. So they need a strategic one year of this is the amount of what you will receive every single month guaranteed. That way they know how to plan their operation.
Andrea Chalupa:
All very well said.
Olga Lautman:
I'll add one more thing-
Andrea Chalupa:
Add another thing.
Olga Lautman:
No seriously, because this is infuriating. The West needs to enable their own sanctions because I can tell you there are... First of all, Russia wouldn't be able to produce one missile without Western components. They are producing five to seven fold since the past two years, depending on which type of equipment. Enable the damn sanctions. Track down all the loopholes and enable the sanctions. Don't allow Russia to get the components they need to produce the weapons and the drones and this and that and that's it. And I mean, if you do a program of providing Ukraine with all the weapons needed right now with end goal of defeat of Russia and liberation of 100% of Ukrainian territory at the same time, how you call it? Making sure that military components do not get into Russia, then you will be able to stop it because Russia, if they get cut off from Western military components, guess what, their production is going to go from 100 to 10.
Andrea Chalupa:
But that would be disrupting the free market, Olga and the profits of the corporations that fund both the Democrats and the Republicans.
Olga Lautman:
But it's not about free markets, it's about sanctions divisions. We have a Treasury department for a reason. This morning, Russian individual with three companies got sanctioned for carrying out schemes for Oleg Deripaska and they got sanctioned. I mean, there is a reason that there are sanctions. This is not about free markets. You can sell anywhere you want to the world, but if you sold microchips, whatever, a thousand units per month and then suddenly come July 2022 after the enactment of sanctions, you're suddenly selling to China instead of 1,000, 200,000 that needs to be monitored. I mean we're very easy for export control from the Commerce Department to go through this, see where the anomalies are to understand what is happening. And with Germany, I believe Kazakhstan trade is 1300% up. Do you think this is for Kazakhstan? Did they suddenly triple their population? No.
Andrea Chalupa:
It's Russia working through Kazakhstan to get with-
Olga Lautman:
Exactly.
Andrea Chalupa:
...killing civilians.
Monique Camarra:
One of the countries. There's lots of them.
Andrea Chalupa:
Do you guys know off the top of your heads which western companies are the biggest offenders in fueling Russia's war machine?
Olga Lautman:
Well, I mean Texas Instrument Parks continue going on. Haas Automation from California, I'm not sure what the latest is, but they continue. And I mean it's mainly the dual use products coming out of US and the military, like whatever it's footprints But then from here it makes its way to Hong Kong or Singapore or Dubai and then to China and then to Russia. But there's a whole slew of them. I mean Russia's maintaining... There's a company, I believe it's in France that is servicing still right now, servicing the airplanes of Russia's security services on top of other oligarchs and everything else. I mean, this is a joke. In Germany there are companies that are directly connected to Russia and then what is it that yesterday-
Monique Camarra:
Is a nuclear. They're going to be doing a nuclear power plant with Rosatom, the Germans. That's what I read. And there's an Italian company called Danieli that they have direct, they manufacture in Russia and sell components for submarines and for other kinds of motors that are necessary for ships and all of that thing. We have companies that are servicing the CMS machines because that's the ones a tool and die that they need to make certain high-level components. That's where Haas came in and other kinds of companies. They managed to track down a lot of these companies who were first opened in Belarus. Then the same companies opened. We talked to... We had an episode about this. Then they opened the same company to evade in China. So this is still going on. I mean, there's no accountability for these people. This is a big, huge problem.
Olga Lautman:
And then the Western companies are operating in Russia. A report came out yesterday that in 2023, the western companies inside of Russia earned 1.3 trillion rubles. That means they're paying taxes to regimes on the genocide. And I think, if I remember correctly, Pepsi is part of it. I mean, so you have regular companies that are paying taxes. Then you had Western banks that pay taxes to Russia, I believe like a billion dollars for last year. I mean, this is a joke. This wouldn't be happening if it was Iran or North Korea. I mean just because it's Russia. So they're allowed to have special treatment. North Korea and Iran are not committing genocide and Russia is, and they're clearly stating they are. They're not hiding it. They are very proud to flaunt that they will eliminate all Ukrainians. So why can we not cancel all diplomatic relations with Russia and make sure that all Western companies leave Russia, and make sure that our military components do not get into Russia. It shouldn't be that difficult.
Andrea Chalupa:
Hey everyone, Olga Monique and I talk for two more hours and you're going to hear it in upcoming bonus episodes for Gaslit Nation. So be sure to subscribe at the Truth Teller Level or Higher on Patreon at patreon.com/gaslight. Thank you to everyone who supports the show. And now here is my interview with Peter Dugas of the Citizens Climate Lobby, talking about their big lobby action days in Washington DC from June 8th through the 11th, which you can join. Be sure to sign up, look for the link at the top of our show notes for this week's episode. So firstly, let me ask you this. How did you first get involved in this?
Peter Dugas:
Ooh, that's a good question. I have been concerned about climate since I was doing undergraduate research on climate 25 years ago and bounced around a lot of different groups and as a volunteer. And stumbled upon Citizens' Climate Lobby in 2018 and was impressed by their strategy and their unique model of trying to arm people with as top level research on not just the climate science, but also policy and communications and influence. And I also was really taken by the fact that they were having conversations with folks on both sides of the aisle, of all ideologies and trying to bring them together to talk about effective and equitable climate policy. So I went to a first couple of meetings, learned about it, and soon they were putting me in meetings with lawmakers and policymakers who were uniquely positioned to move forward on policy. And I was like, "This really works." I got the fever pretty quickly.
Andrea Chalupa:
And what is it that you guys are about to do in June?
Peter Dugas:
Yeah, thank you. So June, I'm the main state coordinator for Citizens Climate Lobby. I'm now actually the Northeast regional director, just more, we have about 2000 volunteers in Maine, at least on paper of varying degrees of activity and about 25,000 in the Northeast in general. Every year we do two or three lawmaker visits, lobby days. This is the one that happens in June, the second weekend in June every year is a particularly big one. That's our Cornerstone summit, our conference in lobby days. We'll be bringing at our peak, it was 1500 lobbyists down to DC so we'll probably get around a thousand this year.
Andrea Chalupa:
Wow, a thousand volunteers?
Peter Dugas:
That's right.
Andrea Chalupa:
Flooding Congress for the climate crisis?
Peter Dugas:
That's exactly right. And in Maine, which has got a tiny state of only 1.3 million residents, we brought 37 last year, including I think 14 high school and middle school kids, and a lot of folks who were retirees who had the time and the means to get to DC and volunteer for it. So this intergenerational effort to do what we can to stave off the worst effects of climate change.
Andrea Chalupa:
And do you actually meet with Republican members of Congress and their staff?
Peter Dugas:
Yes, we do.
Andrea Chalupa:
Okay. Describe how those meetings go.
Peter Dugas:
Well, I can only do so much describing them because they're confidential, but I can tell you in general that you'd be surprised how there's certain policies that get their attention and we're very well-trained on how to talk with folks from all ideologies. And I was actually particularly taken to learn that there are some policies and some tactics that actually do a lot on this. So without naming, well, I can say that these days we have these tiered levels of what we're trying to do, short-term stuff to build momentum in the right direction, and then longer-term efforts.
And we know that particularly some of the longer-term efforts, one of which is to get the US to join what is now every other developed nation in the world in having some form of price on industrial carbon pollution. That actually, depending on how you do it, some of those, at least according to some of the polling, if you give that money back to citizens like the Canadians do with their cashback carbon price. In this country, that's got 80% support under Democrats, according to the Luntz polling group. Amongst Republicans under 40 years old, it's got almost identical. It's got 75% support.
Andrea Chalupa:
Wow. So there's hope with the new generation of Republicans that are coming up in this world like Gen Z and millennials.
Peter Dugas:
Yes. Yeah, and that was an eye-opener for me as well. I mean, I think in some ways you have to look deeper than just what is the common conversation or what gets talked about in a media landscape that's hemorrhaging money and trying to pull in eyeballs and clicks by just talking about the horse races and the fighting all the time. And talk about... If you actually talk about a policy that I think young conservatives have seen in their lifetimes, the changes that are happening with the climate and they know something has to happen. And there are groups out there like Republican EN or there's other groups, there's evangelical groups that are dedicated towards climate justice and stuff because they're worried about it from a conservative religious standpoint about creation care using different kinds of vocabulary for it.
Andrea Chalupa:
Creation care. Could you speak a little bit about that because I thought that the evangelicals wanted to hasten up the destruction of the earth so they can get Jesus back.
Peter Dugas:
I think it's probably a spectrum. I don't think that there are a monolith on their opinions. I can't say too specifically about it, but I would say that there is a wide variety out there. And I know that there are significant, a lot of religious institutions are working really hard on this and know that this is an important thing. I mean, I think everyone, you can point to Pope Francis and his Encyclical on Laudato Si, which got a lot of Catholics from both to the progressive left and from the conservative thinking about like, "Oh yeah, this is a social justice issue."
This does mean exactly what the Gospels are talking about, taking care of the least of our brethren when for instance, we're bringing some new Mainers down to DC who are true African climate refugees to the United States. They are responsible for less than 2% of global emissions historically, and yet they are taking it on the chin with the scarcity wars and the problems that they're having that are creating real social problems. I mean, I think that it's a disparate reaction across all these different groups, but there are a lot of groups we hear from that have a conservative background either religiously or socially or economically or all three, and are pushing their lawmakers in this direction.
Andrea Chalupa:
Which African countries do they come from?
Peter Dugas:
Well, I'm speaking, this is a main centric story, but we have a guy who was a climatology teacher from Bujumbura in Burundi. We also have some Congolese, a young man from... Who's a science and math student who's a high school age kid who's coming in, who's Congolese. There's quite a few of them, but a disparate group. We're trying to pull from all different walks of life to get them into the conversation. And surprisingly, a lot of the times I would say that we're so well-trained to know how to speak in these, always lead with an appreciation, always show that it doesn't have to be an antagonistic thing between the constituents and the lawmakers, particularly about climate and to a conservative.
I mean, we've met with lawmakers from coal country Kentucky that represent where the district, where the coal museum made a big press story like three years ago or so because it was cheaper for them to put solar panels on their museum than to stay on coal. I mean, the markets are moving in this direction, and it's a lot of the times you realize it's just a dance between bringing them that message and then going back to constituents and raising awareness and making sure people know that this is doable if we can just put the right pressure on the right points of Congress.
Andrea Chalupa:
What surprises you in these meetings with members of Congress?
Peter Dugas:
That's a great question. I would say sometimes you get the impression that it's a giantocracy like this is all old people working in Congress that's been... Are in the executive branch. And yes, the folks who are in the office are of a certain generation, but so many of those offices are really the people who are knowing particularly about climate or energy are these 20 something staffers who are really speaking from office to office and they liaison between the offices. They are the ones who are really doing a lot of the work. So it's even within their end, it's an intergenerational conversation.
Andrea Chalupa:
Wow.
Peter Dugas:
I would say that's a surprise. I also think it's a surprise to say how much common ground there might be behind the headlines. I know we had a seat at the table. The most stressful lawmaking meetings we had were in 2022. At least for me, we all knew that the reconciliation package that became the Inflation Reduction Act looked like it was up against the ropes and was not going to pass because we was the slimmest of margins in that deal. And we worked hard to move folks closer on that. I think the thing that was exciting was to know that our efforts actually worked, that we brought Republicans on board of the Infrastructure bill that preceded it, which was at that time the record-breaking climate bill. And then it was quickly superseded by what became the Inflation Reduction Act. Now that Bill doesn't do everything that we wanted to do, namely, it was we had 49 of the 50 necessary senators according to Senator Whitehouse, to include that cashback carbon price on industrial carbon pollution like Canada does.
And we know that the UN continues to call that the quote-unquote necessary condition for stabilizing the climate. But we're hoping that with the coming carbon tariffs to hit the US from the EU, UK, Japan, and likely Canada thereafter, and those dividend checks which are hitting, that are giving benefits to low and middle-income Canadians as we transition the market away from carbon emissions and towards a cleaner sustainable future. That's actually gives both a carrot and stick that's going to eventually move the United States, the biggest market in the world towards that policy. And the faster we can do that, the better off we'll be.
Andrea Chalupa:
So the US is about to get hit with tariffs?
Peter Dugas:
That's right. Well, 2026, the EU has ratified this and approved this, and it's going to be rolled out piecemeal. They're doing their legwork now and 2026 is the year that they're starting and it's being rolled out complicatedly and by sector after sector. So that's one big thing we're continuing to monitor. And I know that there's bipartisan legislation called the Prove It Act, which is the beginning of how to monitor the lifecycle carbon content of all these manufactured products and services that we all consume that all have a carbon content. Now when it's free to pollute that when we do enter a market like that or when we start having tariffs hit on us, we can then return the favor and have these tariffs so that we're pushing each other's carbon emissions down. That's complicated but it's important stuff because it shows that there's a conversation about markets being used in... Adjusted to take in this externality of carbon emissions, which is going to, if we don't do something about it, is an existential threat.
In the short term we're talking more like this summer, we'll be a lot more about things to how to maximize the great benefits we were promised in the Inflation Reduction Act and the Infrastructure Bill, namely like things like electrification and energy efficiency and permitting reform, we're actually talking about, it's going to be tricky. We have to get to yes or no answers on these clean energy projects that are happening in predominantly red states actually that are making local economies boom with new solar and wind and investments that are really transforming our energy portfolio all around the country. But it's being slowed down by the slow process of actually permitting where these things are going to go and making sure the grid has the capacity to take in this new cleaner electricity.
Andrea Chalupa:
Let me ask you this. So everything you're speaking of is collective action, and I live in New York City, buildings like mine size, very common size building across the city. I'm one of millions of New Yorkers that's being hit by our local government to completely get off of gas. So our ratty old gas boilers have to become electric like heat pumps, and we need to then upgrade our very old buildings electrical grid to meet this new capacity for these electric heat pumps. So for us to go all electric, we need to spend money we simply don't have, and we don't know where this money's going to come from, and all of us neighbors are scratching our heads and we're not alone and having this conversation. Countless Americans, especially across cities like mine, are having this conversation because we're getting hit with government mandates like this. And if we don't meet these mandate targets, if we don't hurry up and do this work and somehow magically pay for it, and if our gas boilers are still there in less than 10 years, six years, we're going to get fined.
The city's going to come after us, they're going to find us because they need the money. They need the money. All of us are like homeowners are like, "Wait a minute, shouldn't the 100 corporations polluting this planet and killing this planet pay for all of these upgrades? Shouldn't they be forced to pay reparations. Why is it falling back on us having to pull our hair out trying to solve this really tough financial puzzle?" It's awful. And they try to make us feel like, "Oh, well, we're here to hold your hand and help you through it." Are you here to give me the money or where's the money going to come from because we don't have it? And so it just seems like the height of absurdity that these corporations are getting off so easy.
Peter Dugas:
Yeah, I am totally sympathetic on that. And it's tricky because we've got a piece, like a very large patchwork of different policies because it's a giant country with a lot of different political pressures and going in very opposite directions most of the time. And I guess the local, I don't know the intricacies of the local New York thing, but I would say that there's always going to be folks who are going to try to be pioneers on this. I sympathize because it's a tricky spot to be in. However, I think you nailed it when you said so much about the burden being on us. And we know that the fossil fuel companies who've known about this for decades, their models predicting climate change were better than the government scientific models for a good stretch there. Early on in the 60s and 70s, they have been incredibly successful on eking out every last profit dollar from the existing infrastructure that was extractive from fossil fuels and putting emissions in the atmosphere.
And it's tricky as you've covered in your show before, and I've heard the cool idea of carbon footprint is a way of putting the burden on us, the consumers on us, the demand side. When really it's like the finger should be pointed by policy on the supply side. So that's why that aggressive increasing price on carbon, it's basically sending a signal across the entire market for folks to be like, "Okay, we can continue to do business as we are, but we are going to eat it more and more as the years go on." Instead, we should decarbonize and then get a leg up competitively with the next guy. And it's all about them fighting it out who are running these multinationals most of the time.
And the money coming back benefits you and I because that's like if I had that $736 check every year like my neighbors in New Brunswick are getting, then I could stash away on the sides. But more importantly, that competition to make the cheaper heat pump to make more of the market buy my heat pump benefits me. So it's tricky to be a pioneer like New York is, and I mean granted, these are growing pains as we're really trying to wrap [inaudible 00:51:43]-
Andrea Chalupa:
So New York's legislation forcing all of us New Yorkers to do this is pretty cutting edge then is what you're saying?
Peter Dugas:
Like I say I'm no expert on what's going on legislatively in New York, less than I should, but I would say that-
Andrea Chalupa:
That's what they tell us to make us feel special about doing it.
Peter Dugas:
Yes, and I get it and I get it. But that's the reason why we need national policy, right? Because if you were to just do... If New York was going to do this all by itself, as many people as there are in New York City or in this state, it can only do so much. I mean certainly for Maine, this tiny little state, but New York also can't regulate interstate commerce. So if New York actually had a price or levied a gradually or a steadily predictable and persistent increasing price or penalty on carbon emissions or extraction, then all of your industry would just move to Pennsylvania or to Massachusetts or your neighboring states where it's free to pollute. Which is why they can't regulate interstate commerce. So we have to have it be nationwide, but the carrot and stick is moving the market in that direction.
But most importantly, I think what you nailed is it changes the burden from you and I, who are worried about the issue and want to decide not only do I fix the boiler or do I get a heat pump or do I get this sent to my door from Amazon or do I go to the bookstore and buy it. Everything we buy, do I take a photo of my vacation put in the cloud or not? All that stuff has a carbon footprint that greatly exceeds the direct carbon of gas for my car, heating oil for my boiler or electrical component that's dirty. Some calculations have it, like 70% of it is embedded in the stuff we buy. So the cup of coffee and the pictures in the cloud, all that stuff.
And that's the reason why it has to go at the earliest point in where the fossil fuels and the associated emissions come into the market, which is where we pull them out of the ground. So I'm trying to tell you that it's like there's hope for this and there will be growing pains. I mean, I guess that's part of the problems you get living in a pioneer legislative atmosphere like New York. But I would say that the big thing is just, it's because the critical mass of reducing costs, because we're really moving so much towards heat pumps, we're just still in the infancy stages of that, even though it's never been cheaper, but it's about to get much, much cheaper.
Andrea Chalupa:
Oh, wonderful. So the collective action that we're so far taking is going to force the markets to change respond and all this stuff that's initially need... Yeah, I've become a heat pump expert. You won't even believe how many YouTube videos I've watched. I'm like, dude, just sitting around talking about heat pumps and debating heat pumps, intricacies. So that stuff's all going to get cheaper and easier to install. We're talking like we're in the age of GeoCities right now and we're headed towards like Yahoo.com, and then we're going to get to Google.com.
Peter Dugas:
Exactly.
Andrea Chalupa:
And then we'll be in the golden age of early Twitter, and then you're going to have some oil and gas baron come and mess it all up and turn it into X. That's where we're headed.
Peter Dugas:
Yeah, I like the analogy to an extent. So yeah, I would say that... And funny enough, we get top level talks from when we do these trainings before going into Congress. A lot of the times when we're talking about some of these red state folks who are saying, "Do not talk about climate change, do not talk about carbon emissions, do not talk about greenhouse gas." They say you can speak their language by saying, "We are trying to reduce the impediments or the red tape preventing new energy projects from going in to a place like Texas." And it's probably a fact that both sides, both us and the lawmakers know, but don't recognize that 95% of the new energy projects coming into Texas are from solar and wind. And there will always be people who say, "I don't want to see a new solar farm. I do not want to see another wind farm in my spot," but the money is moving in that direction.
And as much as those things, you may think they're an eyesore, we are going to have to make some really tough decisions. And the problem is that thinking about the psychology of it, it's really hard to get used to something new and it's moving so fast. And the enemy, the carbon emissions, the greenhouse gas emissions are invisible and odorless, the equivalent of when Mount St. Helens erupted in 1980 and sent 540 million tons of particulate matter in the atmosphere, so much so that it blacked out Spokane, Washington, the other side of the state, the day turned into night. If we were to make that 540 million tons of particulate matter into carbon emissions, the United States admits that every 18 minutes in this country.
Andrea Chalupa:
Wow.
Peter Dugas:
But we can't see it. If we could see it, if it did black out the sky, we would do something about it, right? Because it would be like, "I can't grow food because..." This would be an obvious problem but it's not an obvious problem because it's this giant insulating blanket of CO2 pollution that has really pulled a lot of people out of poverty and it was a necessary step. But right now it is so much cheaper. We've never made energy cheaper than we do now with solar and wind. And that's only going to increase as the market continues to move in those directions and we learn.
Andrea Chalupa:
Yeah. Through these government mandates and through collective action like what you guys are doing. So how can folks join you on Capitol Hill in June, and what sort of training do you have for them and why should they get involved with you? Can you help them out and learning all these things? Is it easy? Is it scary? What's your pitch?
Peter Dugas:
It's great. So really, it's a bunch of fun. And you can dig in these meetings to various levels, depending how comfort you are. If you're a policy or a science nerd or whatever, then go for it. They will meet you at the black belt level. But you could also join in these meetings and just tell your climate story, which all of us have at this point. I mean, I talk about Maine Shrimp, which was a $20 million industry when my daughter was born, and she's only 14, and it's gone because the waters have gotten so much warmer in my state. But it's always the second weekend in June, it's a conference where it's high level training and you have breakout sessions for your interest and your inclinations and your political ideology, and then you meet periodically with the teams who you going to do your meetings with.
And everybody usually does two to four meetings depending on your appetite, and you feel really well-trained. And so this year it's, well, there's exciting about a youth day, like a student day for Saturday, June 8th in DC. Then the ninth and 10th is the conference proper where everyone gets very well-trained on how to always lead with an appreciation no matter who your lawmaker is, try to lead with honey not vinegar. And then on Tuesday, everyone puts on a jacket and tie or a smart casual attire and gets up on Capitol Hill. And we have these series of meetings with... Last year, I can't remember the actual number, but it was like 430 something I want to say of the 535 lawmakers met with a representative, our constituents from Citizens Climate Lobby, and we do this two or three times a year. They actually have a particularly one for conservatives only in March. And then we do Zoom meetings around the year, and this is the big one is the second weekend in June. So to find out it would be like CCLUSA, CCLUSA.org.
Andrea Chalupa:
CCLUSA.org, Citizens Climate Lobby USA. And when do folks need to sign up by?
Peter Dugas:
For this year it's May 20th is the deadline for the conference.
Andrea Chalupa:
What if they're late? Because what if they're just listening to this the day before, what do they do? And they can make it, they can physically be there?
Peter Dugas:
I would contact somebody at CCL if you're desperate to go. I mean, really it's about arranging those lobby meetings, making sure the team knows that it's a unit before it goes and meets with Chuck Schumer or Ted Cruz or Bernie Sanders or whoever it might be. There are always rolling opportunities. Like I said, the lobby meeting is the peak of our year, those three times a year. But there's also going around and making sure that... Learning as much as we can, getting the word out about what's possible and sending our direct focus on Capitol Hill where things can actually move to the scale of the challenge.
Andrea Chalupa:
The headlines about the climate crisis are getting more and more dystopian and you have your climate story. I mean, we all do, as you said. In New York, we get flooded now every other year there's some biblical flood where people die. People have their homes completely flooded in basement apartments. You see the subway is completely flooded, the roads, the three ways. And I get messages from all over the world from friends saying, "Are you safe?" And that's the new normal now is every time there's a hurricane, New York City is a hurricane city and these hurricanes are getting stronger and wetter.
The rain just all comes down at once so quickly now. Stronger, wetter hurricanes. My God. And so my question to you, given that you've shared so many insights here about how we're more united as a country on this issue than divided, it's just a matter of going up against the corporate fat cats that hold all the money and the power and are really putting a gun to our head to try to stop this issue from moving forward and getting progress. But what makes you hopeful? What gives you hope and helps you stay grounded in this fight?
Peter Dugas:
I usually am most hopeful when I see all the people coming from all these different walks of life, taking the time and expense of getting to DC and having these conversations with our lawmakers and them really looking us in the eye. I'm going to do something that I usually hate doing, which is pointing to young people. Because when we have talk about, everybody likes to say pointing to young people of, they give me hope because they're talking about this. Which drove me crazy when I was a high schooler thinking about climate change because it was like, thanks. So you reaped all the benefits of a fossil fuel extractive economy, and now we've got to clean this up and here I am all those years later. But I will say that young people have a particularly two superpowers of being in lobby meetings with young people, they really change the tenor of it because they can see in their faces what the world will be like in 40, 50, 60 years, and that will move them.
I think they also inspires the thoughts of their children and grandchildren. And I also think that if I look back at my own adolescence, the superpower is seeing through pretension or seeing through baloney. Seeing through pretense that like, oh, I'm going to give you word salad and this is going to be okay. That doesn't cut it. And everybody knows that, particularly teenagers and early 20s can see through that mess. That gives me hope. And I also feel like the fact that I'm seeing so many surprising places where the world is changing. Yes, every time you see a headline, it's accelerating faster than we thought. There's so much that we've lost. When I first got worried about this, I was doing data entry at Brown University for a thesis on this.
And since that realization about that we were in deep trouble, we have emitted more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere in those 26, 7 years than in all of human history before that time. To put it in perspective of like we are doubly messed up. Now, I'm trying not to swear, but the thing I would say is that at the same time, you can also be true that things are getting so much cheaper for renewable power than even the biggest booster for solar and wind would said just, well, particularly solar just five years ago. And that's going to only increase. And that's a lot of it is just that economies of scale, which is what we're talking about.
But we can't get there just by the goodies, the sugar or the money that that's going to trickle down from DC to try to innovate, to try to spur innovation, which does help. We have to put downward pressure and that's where the carbon price comes in. And we particularly like it when it comes back to our lawmakers. So when I see that it works in Canada, regardless of they've had not a perfect rollout, it's enjoyed two reelection cycles where it's continued as a policy. And now that those dividend checks are coming cash in hand to every Canadian or in those, it's really showing that the policy can work when people put their heads together and put people first to have the economy work for us.
Andrea Chalupa:
And how much are those Canadians getting, the average Canadian?
Peter Dugas:
Yeah, it's complicated because each province is... In order to get it passed, I think they had to have it depending on how fossil fuel intensive your province was. I just know what New Brunswick's, the house of, family of four is getting $736 back this year in periodic dividend checks. And that's increasing as the carbon price would go up. But in Alberta, which is a much more fossil fuel intensive province, it's more, but don't ask me what the numbers are. Catherine McKenna is the woman who's one of my personal climate heroes who was an economist and really smart person and the Ministry of energy up there who had been pushing this. It was actually started in British Columbia where they gave experiments to all the different provinces. They had such an equitable and effective move away from emissions. And it helped the local economy because those dollars back helped so that people could readjust and decarbonize their lifestyles the way they could. It became so popular that it became the default policy unless you were like Quebec and you had a policy that predated it, which they were on cap and trade.
Andrea Chalupa:
Well, thank you so much for such a fascinating look at everything. And I'm so excited for all that you guys are doing and you have to come back again and tell us how your March on Washington, the second week of June where you're sitting down with Republicans that's great, and Democrats and just saying, "Hey, talk to this Gen Z-eir here, who's about to grab you by the throat because you're killing them and their chance of having children and grandchildren." Well, thank you. Thank you so very much, Peter. Thank you tremendously for all the work that you do.
Peter Dugas:
Thank you for having me. And thank you for all you do. I mean, this is an important, this intertwines so much with authoritarian petrol states in the world who are bad actors that, I mean, this is something about a national security thing, which is the other reason why I think this is an inevitability. So thanks for your coverage on everything you do. You have a wonderful platform and best of luck. I'd love to talk again further.
Andrea Chalupa:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's the gas station dictatorships that are making our lives miserable for so long now. And the US could become one because we are one of the biggest oil and gas producers, if not the biggest in the world. Right? And we could become a dictatorship so we could join that clique of bond villains. But we're not going to. We're going to decarbonize and democracy is going to flourish and it's going to be wonderful and I can't wait.
Peter Dugas:
From your mouth to God's ears, Andrea.
Andrea Chalupa:
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