Warnings from Syria on How to Stop Putin in Ukraine
Putin’s brutal escalated invasion of Ukraine was predictable – not only because he announced it in advance, but because Russia has carried out extreme military violence in other regions for decades, most notably Chechnya in the 2000s and Syria over the last decade. As Ukraine continues to fight back, Syria suffers due to the partnership of Putin and Assad and the war crimes they carried out on Syrian civilians, which killed hundreds of thousands and displaced several million. To understand what may be in store for Ukraine, we need to understand Syria, so we invited an expert on Syria for an urgent discussion with Gaslit Nation.
Our guest today is Mouaz Moustafa who is featured in the must-watch documentary about Syria called Red Lines. Mouaz was born and raised in Damascus, Syria before moving to the US as a teenager. He is the current Executive Director for The Syrian Emergency Task Force (SETF). As a former staffer for Congressman Vic Snyder and Senator Blanche Lincoln, Mouaz spent a few years on Capitol Hill before joining SETF in the fall of 2011 to help advocate on behalf of the pro-democracy movement in his native Syria. He regularly travels to Turkey, Syria, and Jordan. He has organized many staff and congressional delegations to the region including Senator McCain's trip to northern Syria in 2013. He worked closely with the Defector Caesar, bringing him to testify in front of the House Foreign Affairs Committee in the US House of Representatives. Mouaz has also worked closely with the US Holocaust Memorial Museum to bring awareness to the atrocities taking place in Syria including a continuing exhibit of the Caesar photos currently at the Museum.
Mouaz discusses what Ukrainians can do to fight against Russian military aggression, what the West should do and should have done to protect Syria, what the West should do to protect Ukraine, the online disinformation warfare that Russia has been carrying out globally for decades, and how to sustain resilience and defiance in the midst of such horror. Mouaz reminds us that we must never give up the fight and we must never give up on each other.
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[intro theme music]
Sarah Kendzior:
I'm Sarah Kendzior, the author of the bestsellers, The View From Flyover Country and Hiding in Plain Sight, and of the upcoming book, They Knew, available for pre-order now.
Andrea Chalupa:
I am Andrea Chalupa, a journalist and filmmaker and the writer and producer of the journalistic thriller, Mr. Jones about Stalin's genocide famine in Ukraine, a genocide that is now being carried out by Putin, who has spent years bringing back the cult of Stalin which should have been a war to all of us. I want to draw attention in this episode of Gaslit Nation to the fact that we're going to be having a fundraiser for Ukraine this Friday, March 11th, at 1:00 PM Eastern time. That's 1:00 PM, New York City time. And that fundraiser is going to feature Agnieszka Holland, the three-time Academy Award nominee director of Mr. Jones, and also Mr. Jones himself, the star of the film, the British actor, James Norton, who has been in a lot of exceptional television shows and films, including Grantchester where he plays a crime fighting priest, which is basically every British show today.
Sarah Kendzior:
<laughs>
Andrea Chalupa:
Also in McMafia, which is all about the transnational crime syndicate masquerading as a government, he plays an heir to a Russian oligarch family in London. It's a very gripping story. And then he was in Greta Gerwig’s brilliant film, Little Women, and a lot of powerful films and television series. So if you want to meet James Norton and Agnieszka Holland and also support Ukraine, the fundraiser is to support the Kyiv Indepent which we're all getting our news from these days. The Kyiv Independent started out as an exodus. It was a group of journalists that got laid off or quit from the Kyiv Post. The Kyiv Post for many, many years was the language newspaper in Ukraine. The outside world was getting their English language news about what was going on in Ukraine from the Kyiv Post. This was an iconic establishment for journalism in Ukraine. It helped launch careers.
Andrea Chalupa:
Journalists that would serve a couple years at the Kyiv Post would go on to bigger outlets around the world. When it fell under new ownership recently and there was censorship and firings, instead of the Ukrainian journalists at the Kyiv Post relenting to this, submitting to this, they refused and they joined together and started their own new news outlet called the Kyiv Independent. That is very Ukrainian, as we're seeing now, that resistance effort. And so now the Kyiv Independent has journalists across Ukraine who are risking their lives, who are reporting on this war, who are fact checking some of the horrendous bad takes in the press and in newspaper outlets and other media around the world, including the New York Times which just ran a really lazy story, unfortunately, that is getting called out by some Kyiv Independent reporters. They're a really great group of people. We're gonna be supporting not only them, but other independent media that they're helping support because it's a whole big network of community across Ukraine that's trying to get the truth out of what Putin's genocide is doing to the Ukrainian people.
Andrea Chalupa:
This fundraiser will also support Proliska, an organization working on humanitarian aid for Donbas. Donbas is a region in Eastern Ukraine that has been under Russian occupation since 2014 when Putin's war first began. Donbas also just happens to be the region of Ukraine where my mother's family is from, where my grandfather, who inspired me to write the film Mr. Jones, is from. If you watch the film Mr. Jones, you can see the scene of the body collector that grabs a dead mother off the street while the still-living infant is pawing at her to wake her up and throwing both the living infant and the mother into the back of his cart of bodies and driving off to the mass grave with her. That scene in Mr. Jones was taken from my grandfather's memoir.
Andrea Chalupa:
That's what he witnessed during Stalin's genocide famine in Ukraine that deliberately mass murdered something like 5 million people, and the vast majority were in Ukraine. Putin has brought mass graves back to Ukraine. What we're watching play out in Ukraine is a genocide and to help us confront this and to help us stop it, we have an extremely important guest that is going to be featured on this show who… I'll get to his bio in a second, but I just want to pause here and just say again: We're having a fundraiser to help Ukraine featuring the heart of the Mr. Jones film, Agnieszka Holland, the director, and James Norton, the star, and folks from the Kyiv Independent. That is on March 11, 1:00 PM Eastern. You can get tickets by signing up at the Eventbrite link in the show notes of this episode or by going to the Gaslit Nation Twitter. Your ticket donations are a donation to the organizations I mentioned, the Kyiv Independent and Proliska, so please join us there if you can, or make a donation to those great folks there. Thank you. Sarah, did you want to say anything?
Sarah Kendzior:
Yes, I do. Andrea's going to tell you more about our special guest for today in a minute, but if you're looking for our regular reporting on Putin's invasion of Ukraine, you should join our Patreon for our early bonus episode. This comes out every week, every Monday. There's also archives of all of our Ukraine/Russia coverage that we've organized on Patreon [and on YouTube] so you could go back four years and review all the points that led to this conflict. This week we did a Q&A where we answered questions from our Patreon subscribers about sanctions, about what Putin's next plan is, about nuclear war, cyber warfare, how Americans can help Ukraine defend itself, whether there's likely to be protests in Russia, all the things that are in the news, we discussed them in yesterday's bonus episode. So go ahead and sign up for that.
Andrea Chalupa:
So in today's show our focus is on Syria because of the deliberate war crimes being carried out by the Russian military right now across Ukraine. People are being reminded painfully of the massive amount of war crimes carried out by Russia in Syria for many years. Syria began as a revolution against a dictatorship and it led to a horrific war, thanks to the Russian military, as you'll hear more about in this interview. The total casualties in Syria range from—and these are all estimates, of course—around 400,000 to 600,000 people with around 6 million people displaced by the war. So as we're all watching what Putin is doing in Ukraine, there have been severe sanctions, finally. President Biden is announcing a bipartisan effort. This has been a united effort across Congress and also a movement to unite Americans. President Biden is announcing today a ban on Russian oil, which is long overdue because that's what props up Putin's economy and therefore his war machine.
Andrea Chalupa:
So we're seeing an unprecedented amount of sanctions against Putin's terrorist regime and in this discussion we talk about, Is it enough? Given the lessons of Syria, where is the war and genocide in Ukraine headed? What more can the West do? How does Kremlin disinformation play a role in all this? What should people be aware of when it comes to Russia in all the many respects, including Putin's claims of ceasefire negotiations and humanitarian corridors? So this is a deep dive discussion into Syria with lessons for us today, though the world failed to stop the atrocities in Syria and we cannot allow that to happen again now in Ukraine, because it's going to be cataclysmic—the number of refugees, the genocide, the destruction, the oppression—because once the Russians take over, as we've seen already in Syria, as we've seen in Donbas, as we've seen in Crimea, the Russians create an Orwellian wasteland, just the regions in Eastern Ukraine are ranked around the same level as North Korea in terms of how authoritarian they are, how repressive they are.
Andrea Chalupa:
And then look at Russia today as a totalitarian regime, right? All the rights and internet access and media access that have been stripped away from the Russian people and all the threats of arrests and all the sadistic riot cop beating protestors, right? Wherever Russia goes, they bring mass death and terror. So if you're wondering why Zelensky is tolerating Russia's war crimes and why he doesn't surrender, it’s because if he surrenders, it's mass death anyway. It's terror and repression anyway. And so at least they're fighting and holding on day after day, hoping that the world will bring more support, hoping that the world will bring more outrage and more pressure on Russia and hopefully something eventually will change. It's a fight not just for democracy, it's a fight for survival and the alternative is submitting to Russian demands, which is just allowing your people to fall under an Orwellian regime of terror.
Andrea Chalupa:
Nobody wants to live that way. That's no way to live for anyone, anywhere, and that's why Ukrainians are choosing to fight even to the death in order to fend that off for as long as possible, hoping that along the way they'll get enough Western support and things will eventually change somewhere, that there'll be hope. So this interview is going to be filled with surprising hope and areas of opportunity, and also provide a lot of very urgent lessons for us today. Our guest is Mouaz Moustafa. Mr. Moustafa was born and raised in Damascus, Syria before moving to the US as a teenager. He is the current Executive Director for the Syrian Emergency Task Force (SETF), as well as a board member of the Coalition for a Democratic Syria.
Andrea Chalupa:
As a former staffer for Congressman Vic Snyder and Senator Blanche Lincoln, Mr. Moustafa spent a few years working on Capitol Hill. Mr. Moustafa joined SETF in the fall of 2011 to help advocate on behalf of the pro-democracy movement in his native Syria. Mr. Moustafa regularly travels to the Middle East. He has organized many staff and congressional delegations to Turkey and Jordan, including Senator John McCain's trip to Northern Syria. In 2013, he worked closely with the defector known as “Caesar”, bringing him to testify before the House Foreign Affairs Committee in the US House of Representatives, as well as the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Mr. Moustafa has also worked closely with the US Holocaust Memorial Museum to bring awareness to the atrocities taking place in Syria, including a continuing exhibit of the Caesar photos displayed at the museum.
Andrea Chalupa:
So, Syria was part of the Arab Spring. There was a popular uprising against Syrian dictator Assad, whose family has brutally run Syria since 1971. From the documentary Red Lines that everyone should watch, which you're featured in, it seemed like the Syrian revolutions stood a chance of being successful. Then what happened?
Mouaz Moustafa:
It was inspiring to see millions of people going out, calling for their rights, asking for the same freedom, liberty, democracy that often I think they take for granted in the West. And seeing that was inspirational. The problem is there was very little done at the beginning in terms of supporting this peaceful uprising. As time went on, it was still hopeful, despite the fact that a lot of the world kind of was looking away from the crimes that the Assad regime was perpetrating, Iran and Hezbollah, but there was still hope. But in 2015, Russia which was supporting this dictator the whole time—all the weapons that the Assad regime has has come from Russia, they gave him diplomatic and other support beyond that, and financial support—but in 2015, Russia came in in full force utilizing its entire air force and its military and bringing in as well the Wagner militia, mercenaries that came into Syria.
Mouaz Moustafa:
And that really changed the calculus in a lot of ways. First of all, we were worried about just the barrel bombs of the Assad regime that would fall on a building and take out a whole building, but when the Russians came in, I remember they would take out whole city blocks in their bombardment. They're just completely ruthless. So Russia's role, which for the last seven years has been to attack, displace and murder the Syrian people, including the targeting of hospitals and schools and civilian areas, really shifted the balance towards Assad. But every time I go to the region, every time I talk to these civilians that continue to resist this Russian/Iranian Assad regime occupation of their country, as hard as it is, I still have hope for Syria despite how many years have gone by. But I would say that the Russian involvement—or increased involvement—in 2015, where they came in as the air force of the Iran and Assad regime, was really one of the main reasons that the Assad regime remains in power today.
Andrea Chalupa:
Right, Putin effectively has a military base on the Mediterranean through his proxy, Assad.
Mouaz Moustafa:
That's right. Not only that, I mean, first of all, the only warm water port for Russia is the one Tartus and the presence of Russia in Syria is just disgusting. Assad, who's merely a puppet of Russia, allows the Russian military to be in there with absolutely complete impunity. A Russian soldier can do horrible things to a child on the road in daylight and no one can hold him accountable. These bases are there in perpetuity. They're not for a certain amount of time, things like Khmeimim base and others. In addition to the only port on the Mediterranean for the Russians, which was given to them by Assad, they have so much more control and kind of a permanent presence in Syria.
Andrea Chalupa:
So Syria's essentially just a puppet state now for Russia?
Mouaz Moustafa:
Absolutely. It is a puppet state for Russia and Iran, but Russia's overwhelming air force role is what's sort of keeping Assad alive because this is someone who's fighting against his own people. He's fighting against every neighborhood in every city and town. What is inspirational is despite Russia for the last seven years testing over 300 of its weapons, killing so many people, targeting civilians, trying to break the will of the people themselves, the Syrian people sort of still stand and I think that's what also gives me hope for Ukraine.
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Andrea Chalupa:
We see President Zelensky making all these impassioned pleas by video to the West saying, “Please do more. If you're not going to give us a no-fly zone, give us the planes, everything we need to create our own no-fly zone. Help us.” And he says Ukraine will not survive without support from the West. So what are the lessons from Syria in terms of support from the West? What were some ways that the West fell short in their support of Syria?
Mouaz Moustafa:
It's a very long laundry list of how many and the different types of the ways that the West fell short in Syria. Unfortunately in Syria we witnessed the worst crimes of the 21st century with, you know, it's a Never Again moment that's reminiscent of things like Srebrenica, or the Kosovo market bombing, or Rwanda. Even some of the pictures are parallel to some of the photos that we see from the Holocaust with emaciated bodies and people that are tortured in these detention centers. And despite all of that, despite all of the proof, despite all of the pleas, despite all of the opportunities, the West kind of missed many opportunities. I think that with Syria, it's going to be denoted in history what the world didn't do.
Mouaz Moustafa:
That doesn't mean that we still don't advocate for people to do the right thing and it doesn't mean that it's too late, because as long as one child or one woman or man are still resisting and standing up and calling for their rights in Syria, it's not too late. They haven't given up. We can't. It's the right thing to do in terms of our morals, our values, our principles, but it's also the right thing to do in terms of our national interests because frankly if Russia didn't understand that it can get away with targeting hospitals, with using cluster munitions and white phosphorus, with doing anything that it wants with impunity, it wouldn't have felt able to do what it's starting to do now in Ukraine. These lessons in what happens in one place in the world has an effect elsewhere. And when dictators like Assad can gas their own people or do whatever and stay in power, that's a lesson to other dictators that they could also do whatever they want in order to retain power or get greater territory.
Mouaz Moustafa:
We need to remember—and I would remind the Ukrainian people and I think everybody in Syria would tell them the same thing—you gotta do everything to advocate. You have to teach the world about what's happening, but do not count on the United States or the West to sort of come to your aid right away. You've got to count on your own leadership, on your own people, and there are ways. There are ways to advocate correctly. There are ways to shame people that have not acted, and it's our obligation to sort of do all we can to make sure that the United States, especially, and the rest of the Europeans understand the implications of their inaction and do something to help save the civilians and also protect their own interests because by helping Ukraine, we're helping Europe and we're helping all the other countries that may be on the list for Putin to invade later.
Mouaz Moustafa:
But at the same time, do that knowing that sometimes you are on your own, sometimes the West’s statements don't match their actions and I think knowing that is important because it allows you to manage expectations and be a better advocate. But relying on oneself, on the Ukrainian people and on the amazing and courageous leadership that you all have, I think, is key as you find ways to try to get the world to move as they continue to watch what's happening in Ukraine,
Andrea Chalupa:
What are you seeing in Ukraine that you saw carried out in Syria?
Mouaz Moustafa:
Unfortunately, when the Russians began their campaign in Syria, we did not understand the level of brutality, the lack of ethics or principles for this Russian military, which respects nothing at all. You know, it's almost inhuman. And I remember how shocking that was. I remember how catastrophic it was that Russian military airplanes and these Russian weapons that we hadn't witnessed or seen before can do so much destruction in the Russian strategy of sort of breaking the will of the people themselves. It's like they have no doubt in their mind that they're fighting free people. They're less worried about even armed groups than they are about people that demand their rights, that want their democracy. I mean, Russia barely at all ever attacked ISIS in Syria, but spent so much time targeting hospitals.
Mouaz Moustafa:
Even when we gave the Russians through the United Nations GPS coordinates of hospitals, just for deconfliction so these hospitals are not targeted, those GPS locations were targeted specifically. So we were shocked by that. And so I'm not as surprised as we see Russia do horrendous things in Ukraine. And frankly I fear for greater criminality as the time goes on. That's why it's so important that everybody stands with Ukraine. That's why it's so important that the United States, Western countries, United Nations do something because we in Syria have seen and have experienced in the last seven years that Russia has this military that has zero principle, that is willing to do anything, and that considers civilian targets as legitimate targets, not as collateral damage. We can see that already by the level of destruction—over a million people displaced in Ukraine and in a matter of a week or so. Unfortunately, this is something that will continue.
Mouaz Moustafa:
And I would also say one thing we've learned is you cannot trust the Russians. When they talk about humanitarian corridors, when they talk about cease fires, these are all opportunities that are part of their military strategy. The Russians only understand the credible threat of force. They only understand when countries are not fearing them or being risk averse, but are being clear that it is a red line killing civilians, that destroying democracies is not tolerated. And I think so far Putin has seen some weakness by the world. I think the unity of Europe and others is powerful and that scares him, but at the same time there's been very little done other than sanctions, which are important, and the rest is just watching Russia begin a campaign that I'm afraid will be as brutal as the one they continue to do in Syria.
Andrea Chalupa:
So basically NATO, the most powerful military in the world, is sitting on the sidelines and drawing a red line and saying, We're not going to go into Ukraine in any way, shape or form, not even to provide a no-fly zone, not even to provide humanitarian relief, no NATO whatsoever in Ukraine. Do you think that's giving a red light to Putin to continue to carry out his genocide against Ukraine?
Mouaz Moustafa:
Yeah. I believe the fact that, you know, whenever countries go out of their way to say, okay, we would never do a no-fly zone, you're taking that option off the table even if the option wasn't on the table initially, but you're taking it off again publicly. When you sit and say we're gonna limit ourselves to sanctions and we're just gonna watch what's happening, all of these do show a green light for Putin to go and do what he wants. So what I think is really important is for the Ukrainians to learn the lessons of Syrians, both in terms of how to resist—and they have been heroic and inspirational, the Ukrainians, to the whole world in their resistance to Russia—but learn from the lessons we have as a people that had to fight the Russians completely alone, everything from how to deal with first responders, with victims, how first responders can play an important role not just saving people but also documenting these war crimes to make sure to sort of adapt to the Russian tactics.
Mouaz Moustafa:
One thing that the Russians did in Syria is they would strike a hospital, wait until the first responders come in, for example, to help save whatever they can, and then they'll do this double tap strike. So being aware of that amongst other things, that's one part is to survive all the resistance because every single day that Ukraine continues to stand against Putin is a day that is frustrating [Putin], is a day that is hurting him domestically, is also a day that's inspiring the world to act and to help. At the same time, I think understanding sort of how advocacy can be a little bit slow but what are the levers of pressure on democratic governments to stand up to their ideals and values and to back up their statements with action, and finding creative ways, again, to create the conditions conducive for a defacto no-fly zone if no-fly zone has already been scratched out as an option by NATO.
Mouaz Moustafa:
I don't understand. I mean, in a way, sometimes the West is very, very, very risk averse. And I also understand that democracies are obviously slower, for good reason, than authoritarian countries in terms of taking decisions. But I think effective advocacy can help in getting the United States and NATO to do more, to be able to help the Ukrainians have some safety and have a bigger chance in their fight, in their resistance against [Russia]. And I think there's a lot of steps that could be done on that. And remember that with every strike—on an apartment building, on anything, on infrastructure—that is an opportunity to document that crime and pursue it because any kid, man, woman that gets killed demands justice. And one thing that we learned in Syria is that even though we didn't even have the ICC as an option, as a way to also go after in courts the crimes of Russia, Iran and Syria, is Russia wants legitimacy in the world so the more war crimes in courts opened against it, that's a blow to them in addition to the deterrence factor that they see that these crimes are not going on in sort of a vacuum, that they are being documented, that they are being pursued criminally and that they are being highlighted for the world to see.
Mouaz Moustafa:
It's also important to make sure that Ukraine remains at the forefront of policy makers’ agendas, that it remains on people's minds, and that's also done by the Ukrainian people and advocates that are advocating on behalf of Ukraine to highlight these crimes regularly. So making sure that people do not forget, because this conflict may take longer than people think. So ensuring that everyone knows and sees and watches, but then finding these effective ways of advocacy that despite the parameters set right now, as you mentioned, NATO saying there’s not going to be a no-fly zone, and sort of work within these political parameters to achieve some of these same goals. But again, what gives me the greatest hope is just watching how inspirational Ukraine's people and leadership have been and I can tell you that not just the Syrians, but so many other peoples are there ready to help and support. And hopefully in time we can move governments like the United States to do more.
Andrea Chalupa:
So we have, already, cities under siege. Russia is carrying out siege warfare, starving cities, bombing humanitarian corridors. What can the West do to bring humanitarian relief to civilians under siege?
Mouaz Moustafa:
I think number one, it's important not to allow Russia to utilize civilians under siege and humanitarian corridors to get concessions or to sort of use this as another sort of excuse or disguise to inflict more pain on Ukraine. Russia cannot be trusted if you hear about a ceasefire trying to be set by Russia in any town, know that the Russians will be the first to breach it, if they even let the ceasefire hold at all. We've seen that in Syria. They've used humanitarian corridors to actually advance their agenda and support the regime rather than allow aid to the people. So the West and everybody must be clear that you cannot trust Putin. You cannot trust Russia. They're not negotiating or doing anything in good faith. They invaded a democratic country with no provocation, with no reason, with no legitimate reason to do so and the world sort of watched them do that.
Mouaz Moustafa:
As a siege happens and these efforts happen, number one, humanitarian corridors and the provision of humanitarian aid has to be done independently by Ukrainians and the West. It cannot be part of any sort of negotiated deal with the Russians because the Russians have no intent. They're the ones besieging towns. They're not the ones that are going to want aid. The person that's besieging and starving a people is not the person to be trusted to give aid to, or to agree to, or to utilize whatever negotiations with them to bring aid in. Unfortunately, that's something that we've seen in Syria. But I think that both the West, neighboring countries and NGOs have to work together with the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian government by the bombardment and at great risk to provide humanitarian aid and to ensure that these cities and these people are not starved to death.
Mouaz Moustafa:
And find creative ways of bringing aid in. I can tell you in Syria, at one point we had to utilize drones with seeds and stuff that we would fly into the area so people could grow food locally and to find other creative ways like tunnels and so on to provide medicine and aid. We constantly had to hide our aid convos. We have to hide our hospitals. We have to hide our schools. I know it sounds appalling but the Russians actually target these things. They go after them. Russia can never be trusted with the humanitarian corridor negotiations discussions. They can never be trusted when they announce or talk about any ceasefire. They cannot be taken at their word. And I think that's something important for the West and everyone to understand most of all to the Ukrainians, but I think that there are so many lessons from Syria in terms of how do you break a siege?
Mouaz Moustafa:
How do you document these programs? How do you hide hospitals? How do you run a civil defense that is not going to be targeted and that’s aware of the Russian tactics so they don't lose as many lives as they save other civilian lives? I think these will be very important lessons in the weeks and months to come, but the most important lesson for the West—and they should’ve learned it by now—is that Putin and Russia cannot be trusted. They're not interested in ceasefires. They're not interested in the humanitarian corridors so these things should be done alone, not in partnership with Russia, because Russia will take these opportunities to inflict more pain on the Ukrainians, not lessen it.
Andrea Chalupa:
Putin notoriously pushes deals too far. He doesn't compromise. How do you see things playing out in Ukraine, even though it's clear Putin's war, in many respects, it's backfiring?
Mouaz Moustafa:
I'm hopeful that it is backfiring. I think the sanctions that have come will inflict a lot of economic pain on Russia and the Russian people but that's going to take time to feel and see in the domestic pressures, which—you know, this is not a democracy, it's a totalitarian, authoritarian regime in Russia—has a high tolerance also for like sort of domestic, even domestically people don't like them. It's not really up to them, but over time that domestic pressure will also increase and then, I think, be effective. But every day that goes by is a day that the Ukrainian people are paying with their blood. Every day that goes by is a day where kids are terrified and being traumatized. Every day that's going by is a day that is just very expensive for civilians in Ukraine, and that's what's heartbreaking. And that's why it demands more by the world because yeah, as we see how the sanctions will pan out, as we see how these strong statements or as we see how domestically Russian mothers will feel about their sons not returning home or being arrested for going to kill other civilians for no reason other than Putin's whims, I think that all in time is already backfiring and will backfire and will result in greater pressure.
Mouaz Moustafa:
But we need more and there needs to be more urgent action. The way that things are playing out right now is, to be kind, an insane person that leads Russia. I mean, I think if the world has not seen that right now, this is someone who's crazy and who is all-in committed to this. I don't think Putin plans to stop. He's not trying to take a small region of Ukraine. He's trying to take the whole country. And so the brutality of the Russians will continue. It'll escalate and that's why—although there's been blowback, although I think anyone who looks at it sees, Oh man, Putin miscalculated—every single day is still very, very expensive in terms of the blood and lives of Ukrainians. And that's why the heat needs to continue to be sort of turned up and there needs to be more and more effective tools and ways and support, particularly by the United States and its European allies, to support the Ukrainian people, to help them defend themselves against this machinery of death.
Andrea Chalupa:
Did Putin make threats of nuclear war in relation to Syria? He has a long history of threatening nuclear war in all sorts of ways, running nuclear war exercises and so forth. When the West did anything to try to support Syria, was there a nuclear war threat pushback from Putin?
Mouaz Moustafa:
Not as much as we saw more recently when he mentioned for all of their nuclear arsenal to be put on standby or something like that. In Syria, unfortunately, we had very little people caring. I mean, it was less international outcry despite the horrific humanitarian catastrophes and massacres that were being perpetrated. And so in a way, unfortunately, under President Obama's administration, Putin was given a blank check to do whatever he wants in Syria where he kind of said, you know, that's your deal now. And so [Putin] didn't feel like he had to make the threat of nuclear weapons and a nuclear deterrent that they have. What Putin did in Syria though, by their own admission, is test out every other weapon they can. I mean, conventional weapons and internationally banned weapons.
Mouaz Moustafa:
By their own admission, they tested over 300 weapons on the Syrian people. I mean, things that I'd never seen. You could tell by the destruction. We have a school for orphans in Syria and a women's center. God knows how many times we had to move them because of Russian attacks that would take out entire villages and neighborhoods. And so I would say that Putin's always ready—because he is insane—to use any threat. But in Syria, because the world kind of let him do what he wanted and stepped away and just watched with even very little outrage, frankly, he didn't feel that he had to make these threats. What he did feel is that he was able to kill as many people as he wanted, target hospitals, use all kinds of weapons and allow his puppet regime to use chemical weapons against civilians, children.
Mouaz Moustafa:
I think that is really important to remember. For 7 years, we allowed Russia to do whatever it wanted in Syria and I think it is because of that is what gave Putin the impression that he can then do whatever he wants in places like Ukraine and others and the world will simply watch. I think that's a very important lesson to remember for Syria. It's also a very important lesson to remember in Ukraine because if we allow him to continue to do this unabated, he's not gonna stop. He's gonna do this to other countries. He's gonna further threaten the West and democracies as he goes because that's the biggest threat to Putin is democracy, especially in Eastern Europe. So although he didn't threaten nuclear weapons, he got a blank check to do whatever he wants and learned in time that he can definitely do what he wants in the future.
Mouaz Moustafa:
We saw in 2014 when he took Crimea, no one did anything. We saw for 7 years what he did in Syria. We saw what he did in Georgia. And now he's invaded the entire country—democratic country—of Ukraine for no reason, on his own whim, because of what he was allowed to do for so long. And that's why every, you know, these atrocities and massacres and what's happening matters. It doesn't just matter to the people living there. Right now, it doesn't just matter for Ukraine. It should matter for every single free man and woman, every person that believes in self-determination of people, that believes in democracy should see this as an attack against them.
Andrea Chalupa:
Do you think if the West had enacted the severe sanctions we're seeing now, but years ago, could it have made a difference in Syria
Mouaz Moustafa:
A hundred percent. If the West could have done a billion other things years ago, it would've made a big difference. If these severe sanctions happened as Putin attacked Syria, he would've changed his calculations and we wouldn't be seeing what's happening today in Ukraine. If the West had supported by any means people that were fighting against Russian MiGs and Russian tanks, Putin would've again changed his calculus. What we've allowed Putin to understand is we see him somehow as some sort of great power, which he's not. Russia is not. Russia cannot compare to the power of the United States military or NATO. And so as Putin sort of continues on his delusional sort of road of making Russia the Soviet Union once again, we kind of allowed him to believe that delusion by giving him such leeway to do horrific crimes. So to answer your question, if we did even have these sanctions, if we did any real support against what Russia's doing in Syria, we wouldn't be where we are today.
Andrea Chalupa:
What more can the West do now to pressure Russia?
Mouaz Moustafa:
I think that the west must continue to stand united against Russia. Any way that Russia could be excluded and could be shown as the pariah that it is under the leadership of Putin, the better. These sanctions must continue and be as strong as ever and look, if people have to make some sacrifices, if there are some implications on European or other economies, and I'm not saying there is, but if there is, that's an okay sacrifice. But beyond that, beyond the sanctions, there needs to be support…If we're not willing to have a no-fly zone, we need to support the Ukrainian people to establish their own to be able to protect as much as they can, and that is by arming and supporting the Ukrainians and frankly those that are fighting against Russia in Syria in order to push back against this imperialist force that is sort of a godless military.
Mouaz Moustafa:
They have no principles, no ethics, no values. There's no red lines for them. That's important to remember and that's why in any way possible the Ukrainian people must be given the necessary weapons and support that they need to defend themselves. And the United States and NATO: I understand, okay, no no-fly zone and no direct military intervention, I get it, that's already set up. But every piece of logistical intelligence, military to military conversations, intel on Russian troop movements and tactics, just like the Syrians are now trying to give as much advice—and I know many Syrian doctors that are going to Ukraine, civil defense workers that are going there—the United States and others must do everything they can to provide the knowhow and expertise and intel that the Ukrainians can use to have a chance against Russia.
Mouaz Moustafa:
Beyond sanctions, the West—led by the United States—must provide defensive weapons, anti aircraft weapons, anti tank, anti armored weapons, in addition to logistical insight, in addition to intelligence to the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian military. That is the very least that they can do. And I think that that can actually have a positive effect in allowing the Ukrainians to continue to resist this war machine. At the end of the day, you know, I understand the disparity between the Ukrainian military and the Russian military might, but I can tell you that in Syria, for seven years we were fighting against them with very little, light weapons and the Syrian people continue to stand. And that's what gives me so much hope as Ukrainians have inspired the world, that with more support the Ukrainians will be victorious because, you know, I was talking to a defected general from the Syrian military who fought against the Russians in Syria.
Mouaz Moustafa:
I was asking him, you know, what should we advise our friends in Ukraine? And he was telling me that another thing that they must remember is that the land fights with you. When you're defending your own land, you know the spaces, you know the geography, you know the people, and that gives an advantage. And at the end of the day, people that are fighting for their democracy, for their rights, for their land, regardless of the lack of weaponry and so on, at the end of the day, those are the people that end up being victorious because they're fighting for something more, not occupiers leaving their country to go kill other people's babies.
Andrea Chalupa:
There are reports that Putin is going to bring in Syrian fighters. Who would these people be and what kind of quality of fighters? You and I privately have had conversations about the Russian military being shit, right? The Russian military is buckling under its own kleptocracy, its own corruption. It's losing high ranking military officials, like a major general, in this war. It's getting blasted in terms of logistics. That 40 kilometer caravan stuck outside Kyiv is a self-made Russian POW camp. Russian soldiers are starving, right? So it's a shit military, as we've seen. Putin's might has been a big bluff but they do rely on, as you've been pointing out, war crimes. War crimes are the center of Russia's military strategy. And as you mentioned earlier in this conversation, Russian planes would deliberately bombs civilians in Syria and then when the aid workers rushed out, the Russian planes would turn around again and bomb the aid workers. So basically just war crimes is the Russian strategy. So now that they're calling in Syrians to fight with them, or to help them in this military battle—because maybe Putin wants to preserve the lives of Russians so he doesn't off Russian mothers—who would these Syrian fighters be? What would they bring to this?
Mouaz Moustafa:
So when Russia came into Syria, they came in support of this brutal militar—it's more of a gang— that is essentially the Assad regime and its Iranian backers. These are people that have utilized chemical weapons against their own civilians. These are people that have done brutal things. So the Assad regime forces, those loyal to the Assad regime that have been fighting against their own people for the last 10-11 years, are the same people that have worked under Russia and Syria, that the Russians had taken to Libya to kill Libyans as well. The Wagner militia has recruited in the past and so we've been tracking this and the Russians are now sort of taking some of these same people that they've utilized to fight against Syrians and Libyan and elsewhere and bring them to Ukraine to fight against the Ukrainian people.
Mouaz Moustafa:
These people are, like the Russian soldiers, people that have no principle, people that do not respect any humanitarian anything. But I would say both the Russian military and these individuals that are being recruited that are from the Assad regime’s military, I mean, this is the Assad regime’s military that are being recruited and taken. It shows you that when Russia takes over, there's absolutely no sovereignty of anything, even if it's a Russian ally. Putin does what he wills in Syria and demands what he wills from the Assad regime. And so it's these Assad fighters that have done horrific things in Syria that the Russians are taking to Ukraine. But I would say no matter who goes into Ukraine, no matter how much training or anything, they are nothing in front of the Ukrainian people that are again fighting for a cause and for their own land.
Mouaz Moustafa:
But we have been tracking multiple efforts of recruitment of pro Assad, pro Iran, pro Russia Syrian fighters that they want to take for “security and guard” jobs. I think this is important because we are seeing Russian soldiers being captured and being killed. This is a way for Putin to try to supplement that with other people, but we're closely watching this and reporting both to the news and to government officials what we're seeing in order to highlight, again, bringing these mercenaries to continue the war crimes that are happening in Ukraine. So these are pro Assad regime fighters and militia men that have fought with the Russians throughout this decade war in Syria.
Andrea Chalupa:
Syria was the victim of a massive Russian propaganda campaign. Could you describe those tactics?
Mouaz Moustafa:
Yeah. Russian disinformation propaganda is just…They have no shame. And it really bothers me when I see people in the United States or otherwise sort of fall for this frankly BS. So in Syria, for example, I run an organization, an NGO, an American NGO called the Syrian Emergency Task Force. We have humanitarian work on the ground in Syria and one time the Russians came and bombed our office. Thank God the staff were not in at the time, but the office was completely gone. You know, the computers and educational materials—we were doing women empowerment and supporting civil society— It was all gone. And I remember a Congressman, Adam Kinzinger, went to the floor and gave a speech about this. Later, the Russian information minister and somebody else from their military and stuff made this whole presentation how we are terrorists and that our office was an Al-Qaeda headquarters, just ridiculous things.
Mouaz Moustafa:
It's completely outlandish. But they are so good at lying and believing their ridiculous lies. And so that's one example. Another example is they blamed our organization, me personally, the White Helmets, which are the civil defense forces in Syria, of gassing our own people. They blamed the chemical weapons attack that killed our children on us. Again, that's the amount of outrageous crap that they put out there. They said all the chemical weapons attacks were done by us against our own kids in order to somehow, you know, get the West to be involved in Syria. They claim that they're in Syria to fight ISIS. They never touched ISIS. They never bombed ISIS or anything. They allowed ISIS to flourish while we were fighting against both ISIS, Iran and the Assad regime. You see some of these same things in their ridiculous language about Ukraine, the denazification of Ukraine when the president is Jewish, when there's a Jewish community in Ukraine that now is pleading for help and support as Russia bombs them.
Mouaz Moustafa:
They talk about that this is some sort of “small scale, special military operation” or whatever he says, when he's invaded a sovereign democratic country in order to take it completely over and to depose its government. They claim that the Russians are there to save lives or end genocides, whatever they're talking about, when they are perpetrating genocidal massacre against Ukrainians of all stripes. So we have seen the full gamut in Syria of just ridiculous claims and misinformation, but what is the most important tool and weapon against that is the truth itself. At the end of the day, the Ukrainian people have truth on their side and have just the right cause on their side. And so being able to report what's happening constantly is really important and a GoPro is your best friend, because the Russians can go out there and make all kinds of ludicrous assertions, say all kinds of horrible propaganda. Don't let it bother you.
Mouaz Moustafa:
Let it sort of slide off your back and keep going but at the same time, show the world what they're doing. Every first responder should have a GoPro camera on him or her. Every person that's out there should be documenting these things and these should be put out for the world to see. And I'm hopeful that as the conflict continues that the Ukrainians are getting better and better organized and they utilize the lessons learned from Syria because I can tell you every Syrian…I was talking to my mom and she was like, “I wish I could go to Ukraine right now. I want to fight against the Russians with them.” We feel as passionate about Ukraine as we do about Syria because it's so heartbreaking.
Mouaz Moustafa:
I mean, in Ukraine, you all have a democracy. It's something that we're yearning for in Syria. And so it's more heartbreaking to see an authoritarian regime invade an established democracy. It's even more heartbreaking than in Syria, although we have so many humanitarian massacres at the hands of the Russians, you know, we're still trying to transition to a democracy. You guys already had it. And so for Syrians, it really is heartbreaking, but we want you to use all of our experience to better organize in order for both Ukrainians and Syrians and any free people to have a solid and united stand against Russia, where they are held accountable for these crimes and where their propaganda is exposed and where the truth, in fact, are shown to the entire world. Everybody in the world should know now who Putin is. People that are extremely left-wing or right-wing or whoever’s drank the Kool-Aid of RT in the past, this is the time to wake up and see the truth. And I think the Ukrainian people are gonna be key in showing the world who the Russian government and who Putin really is.
Andrea Chalupa:
Thank you so much for this interview. I cannot thank you enough. How can people help Syria now?
Mouaz Moustafa:
People can help Syria by standing by both Syria and Ukraine. We are in the same fight against the same war criminal. To learn more about what is going on in Syria and what Russia's doing there, but also what both Syrian people and the Ukrainian people and others that have been oppressed by Russia can do, I would love for you to visit www.syriantaskforce.org, where you can learn about how you can help in terms of humanitarian aid, if you wanna help orphans on the ground, how you can help in terms of advocacy, where now our advocacy in Ukraine and Syria go in the same line because we know and we fear what will happen in Ukraine is what's happened in Syria. You can also learn more about the legal efforts that are being done to hold these four criminals accountable by going to syriantaskforce.org, and standing and doing anything that you can on social media to stand with Ukraine and Syria, to do anything you can, if you wanna donate to send humanitarian aid to Ukraine and Syria. Everyone matters. People should not underestimate what they can do.
Mouaz Moustafa:
You shouldn't think that, Oh, I'm in a country thousands of miles away and this is heartbreaking, but there's nothing I can do. No. Everybody has something that they can do. Pick what you're passionate about, what you like. If you're a writer, write an article about the injustice in Ukraine and Syria. If you are a filmmaker, there's so much footage coming out of Ukraine and so much footage over the last 10 years from Syria: Make a documentary that exposes these war crimes of Putin and his allies. And the list goes on. Whatever it is that you're passionate about as a human being, as a person, use it to support your fellow brothers and sisters in humanity, in Ukraine and in Syria, because it's our obligation. When we turn away from these horrific crimes, when we let these Never Again moments unfold and do nothing about it, not only is that a shame on our own legacy but at the end of the day, this becomes a national security problem for us here in the United States and elsewhere. So doing the right thing is also in the best interest. And so learn more about Ukraine and Syria and reach out to us if you want to know how you can help.
[outro theme music, roll credits]
Andrea Chalupa:
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