Fight for the Vulnerable: The Eliza Orlins Interview
We look forward to bringing you our coverage of the Second Trump Impeachment Trial which starts next week, including discussing the most vulnerable Republican Senators up for re-election in 2022. This week we highlight the urgent importance of fighting for the most vulnerable in our interview with New York City public defender Eliza Orlins, a staff attorney at The Legal Aid Society taking on Cy Vance for Manhattan District Attorney. Vance betrayed the American people and must go.
Show Notes for This Episode Are Available Here
Sarah Kendzior:
I'm Sarah Kenzior, the author of the best-selling books The View from Flyover Country and Hiding in Plain Sight.
Andrea Chalupa:
I'm Andrea Chalupa, a journalist and filmmaker, and the writer and producer of the journalistic thriller, Mr. Jones.
Sarah Kendzior:
And this is Gaslit Nation, a podcast covering corruption in the United States, and rising autocracy around the world.
Andrea Chalupa:
Our coverage of the impeachment trial begins next week. That's a historic second impeachment trial for historic failure Donald Trump. We'll also highlight which of the jurors—meaning the Republican senators— are most vulnerable in 2022, where the electoral map looks good for Democrats again. So be sure to tune into that next week. And this week, we're bringing you a special interview. New York City is incredibly important on the front lines against authoritarianism, as we saw during the Trump years.
Andrea Chalupa:
The NYPD's union endorsed Trump, and the NYPD is currently being sued by State Attorney General Tish James for use of excessive force against protestors. And the grassroots engine here in New York has been providing a lot of extraordinary moral leadership, most famously, of course, is AOC, who gave us a heart-wrenching, deeply personal and vulnerable account of the January 6 violent attempted coup. Please go watch that. You can check it out on her Instagram. She saved it there. It's a gutting oral history of one of the worst terrorist attacks ever against America. In it, she shares how she was terrified and was preparing herself mentally to die.
Andrea Chalupa:
Again, as the impeachment trial gets underway, never forget: this was a violent attempted coup by Donald Trump and his family and many people—including Republican lawmakers who are still in Congress—that incited this insurrection against our democracy. They did it because they thought they could get away with it. They were planning on getting away with it. We're not going to be so lucky next time if we don't do the necessary work to take back our democracy by expanding the vote, protecting the vote, undoing gerrymandering and all the other corruption and cheating the Republicans do in order to try to get minority tyranny in America.
Sarah Kendzior:
Yeah, absolutely. It was heartbreaking and it was difficult to watch the video that AOC put out last night, but it was incredibly courageous of her to do so, and incredibly necessary, because what we're still dealing with here is information warfare and the construction of a narrative. And you see, especially on the Republican side, this farcical and insulting and cruel, honestly, desire to move on, to make nice, to unify, which is basically just their euphemisms for dodging accountability. And so it is critical that no matter what the Democrats do next week as impeachment starts, what the Republicans do, that we all remember exactly what happened on January 6. We remember, as AOC reminded us, that we knew that this was coming, that we knew the violence was there. Andrea and I, even on January 5, announced we're doing a post-insurrection Gaslit Nation special.
Andrea Chalupa:
We had a special plan, okay?
Sarah Kendzior:
A plan! And we described like-
Andrea Chalupa:
It was obvious.
Sarah Kendzior:
Tune in tomorrow as we discuss the terror, violence, lies ... We described what was going to happen and people were like, “wow, how'd you know?”, and I'm like, they told us! Donald Trump told us. The insurrectionists told us. They posted their names, they posted their locations, they live-tweeted the whole thing. There were other signs from Trump supporters and people who oppose him, saying “yes, January 6 is going to be a very violent day. There's going to be an attack on the Capitol.” We didn't know, of course, the details. We didn't know people would die. We didn't necessarily know that they would make it inside, but we feared that they would. So there's this difficult balance where we were trying not to, one, give publicity to people who want to overthrow the government—to violent actors—and build them up. We always have to walk that fine line. And two, we didn't want to completely scare the crap out of everybody.
Sarah Kendzior:
But it was there. It was there and we even talked about it in December. We did an episode and we were like, “please be careful on January 6”. So don't let them lie to you and say there was no idea that they knew this was going to happen. Everyone knew it was going to happen because the people who encouraged it—like Donald Trump, Josh Hawley—and the people who helped plan it, which include Michael Flynn, Roger Stone, GOP congressmen, they all knew. They are traitors. They are violent, and they are fine with the potential murder of their colleagues in Congress, of people like AOC. You cannot let that go. So if anyone tries to make you let that go, to gaslight you, to make you forget, to play down both the trauma on a personal level and the attack on a political level that happened to our country, its representatives and its citizens that week, do not ever, ever let them. And so we'll be covering that next week.
Sarah Kendzior:
It's very likely that we're going to do at least one extra episode as the hearings go on. That will be Patreon only, so if you haven't already joined us on Patreon, please do so. You can get access to all of our previous episodes, including our post-January 6 insurrection episode, which I'm glad we did because you need to record these things as you go on. You need to capture that immediate reaction so that we never forget what we knew and when we knew it. That documentation is extremely important in terms of accountability.
Andrea Chalupa:
And it's absolutely clear when you're listening to AOC's Instagram live recounting of this horrific terrorist attack that the Capitol Police leadership were in on it, that this was deliberate and the massive conspiracy included a very wide network of actors. There need to be investigations. There need to be firings, and the seditionists in Congress—Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, that QAnon mascot from Georgia—they all need to be removed from Congress. They have absolutely no business representing the United States of America at this fragile moment. They need to go. They are a danger to our country. They are a danger to their colleagues in the Congress.
Sarah Kendzior:
Yeah. And I don't want to hear anything about “oh, but what about their constituents?” because guess what? They're threatening my representative. My representative is Cori Bush. I am her constituent. What are you saying about the constituents of the threatened representatives when you place the people who are committing sedition—who are encouraging violence—and their constituents above us. Of course everyone has the right to representation. They don't have the right to representation by traitors and criminals who want to, one, overthrow our government, and two, cheer on or help the assassination of their colleagues. When you do that, you've got to go. And then you get a new representative who won't do those things. It will probably be a representative that disagrees with my representative on all sorts of stuff and that's politics and that's freedom of speech and that's how things should work. But there is a hard line to be drawn here. So don't fall for that argument either.
Andrea Chalupa:
QAnon, Republican, neo-confederate, Nazi, whatever you want to call them, they are at war with us, and those in power have to act accordingly to protect our democracy and hold these traitors accountable. Now, moving on to this week's big interview, 2021 is a big year for New York City. After all the hard work we put into stopping Trump's attempted dictatorship in 2020, New York City voters now have to fight for the soul of our city in 2021. This year, there are primaries for district attorneys and the big mayor's race. No rest for the weary, as they say.
Andrea Chalupa:
If you need to change your party affiliation in order to vote in the upcoming primaries in June, you must do so by February 14 by filling out a voter registration form and mailing it or hand-delivering it to your local elections office. So if you live in Brooklyn, it would be the Brooklyn elections office. The mail is slowed down and there's a pandemic. Both of those crises have been created by the Kremlin asset Donald Trump, so it's best to hand-deliver your registration if you can do so safely.
Andrea Chalupa:
So this week, in celebration of all that is good in New York City at this historic and challenging moment in America's history, we have an interview with New York City public defender Eliza Orlins, a staff attorney at the Legal Aid Society. This interview was recorded in October of 2020, so you'll hear some dated conversation which provide important reminders of where we are and what's at stake today. Eliza Orlins stands out as being prolific on Twitter of speaking truth to power. Her campaign is powered by small dollar donations and it's very much a grassroots-driven campaign. I met her at the Women's March in 2017. We marched together.
Andrea Chalupa:
The Women's March, of course, gave us a wonderful new generation of women leaders across public service. I would love to see Eliza Orlins, my friend, as one of those women—as Manhattan's new district attorney, replacing Cy Vance. We will go into Cy Vance's failure as a district attorney in this interview. You'll hear all about that. Sarah, of course, has covered it in her book, Hiding in Plain Sight so you can read about that some more. Now, I'm going to read from Eliza's bio on her campaign website, which you can check out to learn more about her at ElizaOrlins.com. All right.
Andrea Chalupa:
Eliza Orlins is a Manhattan public defender, an outspoken advocate for our city's most vulnerable. For more than a decade, she has represented over 3,000 New Yorkers who otherwise would not have been able to afford a lawyer. During this time, Eliza has developed a reputation as a relentless champion for the underdog. She has taken on the toughest of fights for the very people our system is rigged against, including our Black and Brown neighbors and those in lower income communities. In 2020, Eliza announced her candidacy for Manhattan DA, with a platform designed to transform criminal justice and make New York safer for everyone.
Andrea Chalupa:
Time and again, Eliza has demonstrated the courage and tenacity to take on powerful entrenched interests—including DA Cyrus Vance and his cronies—to prevent moms and dads who are being thrown in cages for “offenses as petty as putting a bag of groceries on an extra seat in the subway”. Eliza's victories on behalf of the vulnerable have been profiled in the New York Times. In addition, she has developed a reputation as a powerful advocate for justice in the court of public opinion. Her columns have been published in Gotham Gazette and Blavity.
Andrea Chalupa:
As a criminal defense attorney for the Legal Aid Society, Eliza has litigated in both New York State Supreme Court and New York State Criminal Court. She also trains new lawyers to argue for bail, win suppression hearings, cross examine witnesses, and compose powerful closing arguments. Eliza has been a proud union member with the Association of Legal Aid Attorneys Local 2325, part of UAW 9A, since 2009. Eliza is a graduate of Syracuse University and Fordham Law School, where she was Symposium Editor for the Urban Law Journal and led a symposium on the constitutionality of lethal injection. In 2004, she competed on CBS’s Survivor, an experience that netted her a national following which she uses to advocate on behalf of criminal justice reform and other social justice issues.
Andrea Chalupa:
Now, without further adieu, here is our interview with Eliza Orlins, Democratic candidate for Manhattan District Attorney. Goodbye, Cy Vance.
Andrea Chalupa:
So Eliza, please give us some background. Why are you taking on the great Cy Vance?
Eliza Orlins:
Well, first of all, great to be here. I am a huge fan of yours as well, so I'm so happy that we are getting to have this chat and I'm so grateful for your support. As you mentioned, I've spent my entire career as a public defender. It's what I thought I would do with my whole life. It's the reason I went to law school. I really thought I would be a public defender forever. It was the only job I ever wanted, and after spending more than a decade going up against Cy Vance and representing thousands of human beings charged with crimes by the Manhattan District Attorney's Office, I realized that we don't have a system of justice. We have a criminal legal system that is cruel and unjust, and it does not make us safer.
Eliza Orlins:
I really came to the realization after standing side by side with thousands of people, and fighting for human beings, that we need a change. We need to see a bold transformational change in the Manhattan DA's office and we can't change this rigged system of justice that we have that gives breaks to the wealthy and well-connected and meanwhile over-prosecutes and perpetuates this lock ‘em up, throw away the key mentality when it comes to everyone else. So, that's what led me to the decision to run for Manhattan District Attorney and take on Cy Vance.
Andrea Chalupa:
That's fantastic, because he's been such a thorn in our side. When a case goes to him—an important case of accountability—there's always this nervous feeling of “oh God, he's going to punt it”. And one of the most classic examples of this, of course, is the Trump Soho fraud scandal, where Ivanka and Don Jr. were being investigated for defrauding people who bought units in Trump Soho. And that case was dropped by Cy Vance when a big donor came to him, and that donor happened to be the family lawyer for the Trump family.
Andrea Chalupa:
Amazingly, if Cy Vance had just done his job and focused on accountability, the Trump family might not even be in the White House today. If Ivanka and Don Jr. were indicted for fraud all those years ago, we could have had a very different outcome of the 2016 election. So could you comment a bit on Cy Vance doing that, why you think he did it, and what does that say about him? Does that speak to his larger record as Manhattan DA?
Eliza Orlins:
It really does. The Manhattan DA's office is wildly powerful. Despite the fact that it's a local office, it's one that holds massive power given all that is located within Manhattan. Cy Vance has really undermined the credibility and integrity of that office, and as I said, a major reason why I'm running, I think no one is above the law. And I think that those who are wealthy, powerful, well-connected who break the law must be held accountable. Cy Vance has done a really terrible job of holding people accountable who are powerful and well-connected.
Eliza Orlins:
There have been circumstances like the Trump Soho case that you referenced, like arguing for leniency for Jeffrey Epstein, like having recorded evidence of Harvey Weinstein committing crimes of sexual assault and not going forward with that case for six years, until this big expose was written and the public pressure mounted to the point where he had no choice. He's really focused on crimes that are the low hanging fruit. He locks up poor people and people of color in record numbers for drug possession, for crimes of poverty. So, he's not putting the resources into things that would actually keep us safe and hold accountable those who are perpetrating real harms on our community.
Eliza Orlins:
So I think that it's so important to talk about the power of a district attorney and what it could really mean to have a person in the Manhattan District Attorney's Office who's committed to holding those people accountable.
Andrea Chalupa:
Wow. So, Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey were both let off the hook by Cy Vance as well.
Eliza Orlins:
Well, eventually he did bring a case against Harvey Weinstein and the Jeffrey Epstein situation, they were arguing for leniency on Epstein's SORA (which is the sex offender registry), the SORA level, his sex offender registry level, and they were arguing for downward departure. I represent people charged with sex offenses and never once have I had a case where they've not asked for either an upward departure or the sex offender level. They've never once requested a downward departure, and it falls right into the pattern of Vance giving breaks to those who are wealthy, well-connected and powerful, and who run in the same circles and who have the ability to make massive campaign donations.
Eliza Orlins:
You mentioned a massive campaign donation. What many people don't realize, if you want to donate to a federal race, if you want to give to Joe Biden or someone in a primary, the max you can give is $2,800. But for the Manhattan district attorney race, the max you can give per individual donor for the primary is $35,000.
Andrea Chalupa:
Oh, what? Oh my gosh.
Eliza Orlins:
I know, right? It's just another way that they maintain the status quo, that they keep the people in power, in power. Having a donation limit that high makes it so that someone and their spouse can give $70,000. Someone like Cy Vance can spend an afternoon of call time calling ten friends, getting them to max out to him, and potentially with their spouses raising over a half million dollars in a day.
Andrea Chalupa:
And they've effectively bought the DA.
Eliza Orlins:
Listen, it's certainly something that is in desperate need of reform, and it's just another way in which the systemic inequities play out. And it keeps those who are rich and powerful in power and doesn't let anyone else break through.
Andrea Chalupa:
Let me ask you this. So New York City is such a core battleground for the soul of our nation. And I'm so proud of this energy that's permeating New York City right now—that AOC energy—where communities are taking the power back in their own hands and building their own power. If we got a progressive Manhattan DA, that would be enormous in finally getting accountability and reforms. It seems the path to doing that is so treacherous because of the massive amount of money that shields Cy Vance, and the massive amount of power that shields Cy Vance. What would we have to do in New York to ensure that if you want to run for local office, like the DA race, you're limited to only taking public funding? That way everybody's on an even playing field. Is that possible?
Eliza Orlins:
It is possible, but it would require those in power to get on board with it and I think that that's going to be extremely difficult. That would require our governor to enact legislation, to sign off on legislation that allowed for New York State laws to be changed in terms of public funding or finance matching, which is what is happening in municipal elections. So for city elections, there is a public funding option where you get matching funds up to eight-to-one for city residents, et cetera, and it's great. It really is showing a real desire for reform and it makes running for office more accessible.
Eliza Orlins:
But because the office that I'm running for, the Manhattan DA's office, it's a county-wide seat—it's actually New York County district attorney's office. So, Manhattan is New York County. It's like I was running for ... It's Suffolk County, Westchester County, Onondaga County, Cayuga County, any county in New York State. So we're actually governed by New York State law, and not New York City, so we don't have that public financing and the matching funds available to us. So we would need to change the laws on a state level and that would require Governor Cuomo—who also has a number of really big wealthy donors—to want to change that law, which is going to be very difficult. It's an uphill battle for sure.
Andrea Chalupa:
So even if that law were changed, if there was a law that we fought for saying all races are limited—limited. Everybody must be on the same even playing field, and that is you're limited to public financing. Right? There's not even an option to say no to public financing and have an unlimited ceiling or higher ceiling to raise your own. So, if we did something where it was like everybody's public financed, and Cuomo, based on some sort of miracle signs off on that, that case could then be taken to the Supreme Court where John Roberts and his court that gave us Citizens United could overturn it and say actually, you're messing with a corporation's first amendment right. Right?
Eliza Orlins:
Oh, God. That's quite a hypothetical, because I think that even in the city, even in the municipal races where you can opt in to the public funding, they still have a bunch of folks who are not going to opt in because they're going to take big donations and raise big dollar amounts. So the idea that we would only have publicly funded elections is probably a pipe dream, at least for the foreseeable future. But this is why we are trying so hard to build a grassroots movement. What we're doing is getting thousands of people to donate. So, whereas Cy Vance can raise $350,000 from 10 individuals, I can raise $350,000 from 3,000, 4,000 individuals. So that's what we're doing. We're doing this on a really grassroots level and we have thousands of people supporting the campaign who really believe in our message and who want to see real reform come to the Manhattan District Attorney's Office.
Andrea Chalupa:
What is that reform? What do you plan to do starting day one as Manhattan DA?
Eliza Orlins:
There are so many things that need to happen, but they all kind of fall under the umbrella of what I call decarceration. For far too long, we've locked up way too many people for low-level offenses, for the inability to buy their freedom. Cash bail is a huge problem. All it does is perpetuate the racist, biased nature of our system. It coerces pleas. People who are locked up for, even if it's three months, three weeks or three days, those people become exponentially more likely to reoffend or get rearrested, just for being locked up for a few days.
Eliza Orlins:
And it makes sense, because if you're locked up for a few days, you miss work, you lose your job, you can't afford to pay your rent, you lose your home. If you're a single parent, you lose your kids to foster care. So people lose everything they've ever worked for, and that means that we're not keeping our city safe by locking people up in that way. So we need to not only end cash bail and decriminalize poverty and decriminalize low-level drug possession and decriminalize sex work, but we also need to ensure that there are alternatives to incarceration that are really accessible to people.
Eliza Orlins:
That they are the rule rather than the exception, that people are able to seek rehabilitation, seek treatment for mental health issues or substance use disorder and wraparound services that actually help people and keep them out of our criminal legal system rather than just continuing to cycle people through and dehumanize them on every level. Cy Vance has really not treated people as people. People are identified by case numbers or they're called felons, criminals, bodies, inmates—it's truly dehumanizing at every level. So that's why we need someone to come in and bring that really bold transformational change. And as someone who's spent my entire career as a public defender fighting on behalf of people, that's what I would continue to do as Manhattan District Attorney.
Andrea Chalupa:
So basically, you'd go away from relying on police, relying on locking people up and instead, providing social services and ensuring that people got the social services that they needed to treat their specific situation, and not just cast a wide net that could pull in a lot of people and destroy lives.
Eliza Orlins:
Exactly. For far too long, our country has criminalized addiction and poverty, to the tune of 10 million arrests per year. And there are 2.3 million people locked up in our country right now. Mass incarceration just has not provided the public safety we want and it never will. Our criminal legal system should be focusing on perpetrators who are doing real harm, and not petty crimes that are taking productive citizens out of society. So funding must be reallocated to support people who are experiencing mental health issues, or substance abuse disorder. We should be investing in communities and funding schools and hospitals and housing and food. We need to create real systemic change, so I think that this has to be the way that we rethink this in order to create a society that we all want to live in.
Andrea Chalupa:
So basically, it's about establishing a social safety net, and giving people a helping hand up, and being generous with them so they can finally find their way. There's actually a study on homelessness out of Vancouver, Canada, I believe, where people that were home insecure that were given money, they were able to land on their feet. So it's about creating that social safety net. And if somebody like Cy Vance would balk at that because he'd rather just treat these people like they don't matter, he himself was born into a very advantageous situation, where his father Cy R. Vance served as the Secretary of the Army under JFK and Lyndon Johnson and was the Deputy Secretary of Defense under Johnson, then Secretary of State to Jimmy Carter.
Andrea Chalupa:
So Cy Vance had a big old net throughout his entire life where he could take risks, he could go out and build a dream career for himself. He had all this access to power and privilege. So, it's about those who are not so lucky in terms of where they were born and the families they were born into, in terms of their economic standing. And it's those that we need to help establish a more secure life for themselves. That's the shift we're going to, it's sort of evening the playing field with the Cy Vance Juniors out there that were born into all these advantages and are now criminalizing those who weren't, essentially.
Eliza Orlins:
Exactly. Exactly.
Andrea Chalupa:
Yeah. It's crazy. It's really crazy to see somebody as tone-deaf as Cy Vance Jr. going around treating poor people this way. It's like Mr. Potter in It's a Wonderful Life. [laughs] So, let me ask you this. I'm always fascinated. I think all of us into the Trump years have been forced to become interested in how our legal system works. Paul Manafort, for instance. It's well-documented that he was the head of the torturer's lobby. He's been furthering Putin's interests in the West for a very long time now. And all of us looked at his case and how he got seven years, for all that. He got seven years. When that verdict passed down, I remember somebody on Twitter—a Black man on Twitter—said, "Welcome, white people, to our legal system. This is how it works, the rich and powerful escape justice."
Andrea Chalupa:
Could you walk us through, just as wonky legal exercise, because these conversations are always fun and the more we citizens can understand how this all works, the better. If Trump and his family were to leave office in 2021 and Biden is now President, what would happen then in terms of the crimes Trump has been accused of committing? The Mueller Report called him an unindicted criminal, essentially. And then of course you have ethics watchdogs building a big case file on Ivanka and Jared. Could the Trumps escape the law? Could the Trumps ride off into the sunset and continue to be normalized and never face any sort of investigations for what they've committed?
Eliza Orlins:
Theoretically, there can be ... We've seen it in the past that federal pardons are a thing. But you can't be pardoned for state crimes, and so local prosecutors, such as the Manhattan District Attorney, will have the ability to investigate crimes committed that are within the statute of limitations in their jurisdiction. So I couldn't say what I would do in those specific cases because I would need to have an investigation done and look at all the facts and apply the law. But I do think that there has been a pattern of there being one set of rules for the privileged and powerful and another for everyone else. And I think that that's why it's so important to elect local district attorneys—and I think Manhattan District Attorney especially—who have the political courage to not have different sets of rules for those who are powerful and everyone else.
Eliza Orlins:
So I think that being someone who has said there won't be two sets of rules, there won't be a different set of rules for the Trumps and for everyone else, I've really been outspoken that I think it's extremely important that these local investigations be done and that people think about what is really transpiring in their cities and holding people accountable. I don't think that people should get to just get off scot free based on their status in life. I think there has been this build up of situations where those who are wealthy and powerful have been getting a pass, while those who are poor and those who are vulnerable have been prosecuted so harshly. That's what's destroyed the trust in our legal system, in our district attorneys' offices, even in our Department of Justice. It's just been something that's really undermined the credibility of these positions.
Andrea Chalupa:
New York City is having an interesting moment. We are headed towards a mayor's race in 2021. You have an uptick in crime, which isn't just the New York Post pushing that but there is an uptick in crime. So what I'm really concerned about is that—this national politics of people wanting to criminalize the poor, sweep up the poor and the homeless and get them out of sight—I'm concerned that we're going to have a return to the Giuliani '90s, because I feel like there's going to be this backlash, when people are so anxious and scared because of where we are right now in this moment, with a pandemic ongoing.
Andrea Chalupa:
So what would you say, in terms of people advocating... In 2021, let's say we have a heated mayor's race. It's a Giuliani 2.0 versus a progressive candidate. What would you say to the Giuliani types, the backlash, that want to be tough on crime, that want to sweep up poor people. How would you try to convince them that's not the way to go, even if we do continue to have a spike in crime?
Eliza Orlins:
Well that's going to be the same ballot that I'm on. The 2021 races in New York are going to be very highly contested and there will certainly be conversations like the ones that are happening right now regarding what has been going on in our cities, in our country. I think that the conversations that need to happen are ones that really help people understand what will keep our communities safe. I think there are so many people who are saying, "Oh my God, this city is falling into disrepair" and yes, there is a fear that this backlash will take us back to the Giuliani era.
Eliza Orlins:
But I think that there's so much money in the budget that is being spent in a way that is not keeping us safe, not fostering healthy communities. I mean, we have billions of dollars of state budgets being invested in surveillance, in punishment, in policing, instead of fostering equitable, health and safe communities. And I think that explaining to people and saying, wait, listen, if we re-allocate these funds and put them into social services for mental health, for domestic violence, for homelessness, and we fund schools and hospitals and housing and food, that is actually what will uplift our cities, and this is what we can do to serve people.
Eliza Orlins:
It's not that we're under-resourced, it's just that the priorities are not in the right place right now, and all of this money—these billions of dollars that we have—could be going towards solving almost every problem we have. People who are suffering from substance use disorder, we don't have enough treatment facilities in New York. Do you know who the number one provider of mental health treatment is in New York? It's the Department of Corrections. So people in jail, that is where the majority of our mental health treatment is coming from. That's an outrage.
Eliza Orlins:
So if we were able to build new facilities, get people beds, make sure that people had the resources that they needed to be employed, to take care of the issues they were facing, that is how we will uplift our city. That's how we will build back and make sure that people are taken care of rather than being on the street or making the city feel unsafe.
Andrea Chalupa:
Wow. It's just amazing that us New Yorkers have to go from such an intense 2020 into such an intense 2021. We're going to fight for the soul of the city. De Blasio's on his way out, and I know you're not a fan of his and you're welcome to chat about that. I like Dan Zarrilli, his climate czar. That administration has been tough on climate change and preparing for that, and I'm so concerned just in terms of climate, this Fox news pundit coming in and becoming the next mayor of New York and rolling all that progress back. So 2021 is going to be just another 2020 for us New Yorkers.
Eliza Orlins:
Yes, I know. I know. People said, oh let's just get Biden elected then we can all go back to brunch and I'm like, there's no back to brunch!
Andrea Chalupa:
Yeah, there's no back to brunch [crosstalk 00:35:43]
Eliza Orlins:
The fight is not over. This is not over, no matter what happens in a couple weeks. This fight is not over. It still is so important that we continue to fight, that we continue to make progress, that we recognize that local elections matter. People say, “oh I live in a blue state, I live in a blue city, it's okay, our work here is done”, but to them I say, it's really not.
Eliza Orlins:
First of all, not all Democrats are created equal. Cy Vance is a Democrat and he certainly doesn't share my values. So I think we need to make sure that people recognize that okay, you can take a couple days off after the 2020 election, but then the fight is on for 2021, especially in New York. And whoever the next DA of New York is—you know,me—and whoever the next mayor of New York is, it's going to have a huge impact, not just on New York City but it will have reverberations throughout the country.
Andrea Chalupa:
Absolutely. And say what you will about De Blasio...Throughout Trump's time in office, he's been at war, open war with New York City. New York is a proud sanctuary city, so New York is really holding its own. And we always point to, if you lose the federal government—the federal government becomes hijacked by a far-right party—your cities, your state governments, become so incredibly important as a buffer against that.
Andrea Chalupa:
So with that said, could you walk us through a brief explanation: what rights do we have if we lose the Supreme Court? If Amy Coney Barrett, God forbid, does go through, and this is a very solid far-right majority on this court, can they override our laws? Could the rabid Republicans among us in New York state, New York City, bring cases to try to undo our hard-fought work on the ground? What protections do we have, and what protections could you help guarantee us as Manhattan DA?
Eliza Orlins:
Well, I think that obviously we need to fight this Supreme Court nomination. Obviously we want to have a federal government that is supporting everyone across the board, but actually here in New York, things like Roe v. Wade are already protected. It's codified here in New York. So, in New York, is abortion going to become illegal? No. Even if Roe v. Wade is overturned, New Yorkers will still be able to make choices about their bodies and make decisions regarding their health and safety. New Yorkers will be protected.
Eliza Orlins:
But we have to fight back just as I want to do as DA. We have to fight for those who are the most vulnerable, because abortion is always going to be accessible to those who are wealthy. Even if it becomes illegal in certain states, those people will be able to travel and safely get abortions. This is something that is simply going to affect the most vulnerable among us, which is why we need to fight for local elected officials who will protect people.
Eliza Orlins:
Our vulnerable communities are the people who most desperately need protecting. People have unique stories and unique needs. I think about our immigrant communities and the unfair treatment that they've received and the way in which ICE has come in and, I mean, God, the stories that have come out recently about what has happened with family separation and the fact that they will never be able to reunite those children with their parents.
Eliza Orlins:
This is not something even if we elect Biden, even if we block the Supreme Court nomination… This administration has done irreparable damage. It is stuff that cannot be undone, and then there are things that will probably take decades to undo, if we can undo them. The way in which he has nominated judges across the federal judiciary is just devastating. And so I think we need to focus on these local elections. We need to focus on electing people who will protect our Black and Brown communities, our LGBTQIA folks, those who have disabilities, those who are disadvantaged, because if we don't do that, those are the people who will be the most at risk. And I think we need to be committed to centering those voices.
Andrea Chalupa:
Well, thank you so much, Eliza Orlins for Manhattan DA. If you are a Manhattan resident—a Manhattan voter—please vote for her for your next DA. We've had enough of Cy Vance. He's left a lasting legacy of an utter lack of accountability. We cannot sustain any more time with Cy Vance as Manhattan DA. It has serious repercussions, as we've seen with what he's done in terms of letting Ivanka, Don Jr., Epstein, Harvey, those guys off the hook, essentially. So bring in some accountability, bring in a reformer, and that's Eliza Orlins, who I am absolutely proud to endorse and call a friend. I'm so proud of you, Eliza, and we're going to continue this fight.
Eliza Orlins:
Thank you so much and thank you for the support and for always speaking out against all of this injustice. Together we'll keep fighting. We know the work isn't done, and we will hopefully see real transformational change.
Andrea Chalupa:
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Andrea Chalupa
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