Sorry Not Sorry: The Alyssa Milano Interview
We know there’s a lot going on, but Sarah isn't feeling well and lost her voice. We plan to cover the major news events next week, like the elections and what they can tell us about the midterms, and Joe Manchin’s latest betrayal of the American people. This week, having recently spoken at Congress about the urgent importance of adding the Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution, and getting arrested in Washington, DC in a protest demanding voting rights legislation, Alyssa Milano stops by Gaslit Nation to discuss this and more, including her new book Sorry Not Sorry.
For more on Alyssa, here’s a condensed version of her biography from her website: Alyssa Milano currently stars in ‘Insatiable’ for Netflix as ‘Coralee,’ the social climbing wife of a disgraced lawyer/beauty pageant coach. Prior to that, she was seen in their hit series, ‘Wet Hot American Summer: Ten Years Later,’ with Amy Poehler, Elizabeth Banks, Michael Ian Black, and Judah Friedlander. Milano also served as the host and a judge on Lifetime’s ‘Project Runway All Stars.’ She entered the world of graphic novels with ‘Hacktivist,’ a fast-paced cyber-thriller that follows the young founders of an innovative social media company who moonlight as a secret black-hat hacker team. Milano starred on the hit series ‘Charmed’ for nine years. She began her career on ABC’s ‘Who’s the Boss,’ and has appeared in over 20 films.
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Andrea Chalupa:
My name is Andrea Chalupa. I'm a journalist and filmmaker and the writer and producer of the journalistic thriller, Mr. Jones, about Stalin's genocide famine in Ukraine. And this is Gaslit Nation, a podcast covering corruption in the United States and rising autocracy around the world. Sarah Kendzior, my co host, is not here. Sarah made a deal with a sea witch in exchange for her voice. The sea witch will throw a bunch of potions into a giant clam shell and grant America a stable and secure democracy. It won't cost much—just Sarah's voice. In all seriousness, Sarah is under the weather and has lost her voice, unfortunately. We wish her a speedy recovery. We’ll be back hopefully next week with a big Gaslit Nation episode, where we cover the major news developments from the results of the Virginia bellwether election and what it means, whether Steve Bannon or any of the other coup plotters have been arrested yet, and Joe Manchin's latest Republican-backed obstruction against Biden's Build Back Better agenda, which America desperately needs right now.
Andrea Chalupa:
Manchin is suppressing the will of the majority of Americans yet again, pleasing his friends in the Grand Old Authoritarian Party. So, there's lots going on. It continues to be a tense time, but keep your eye on the prize and check out the Gaslit Nation Action Guide on gaslitnationpod.com on ways to stay engaged because we didn't get this horror show overnight, and we're not going to dig ourselves out overnight. So, find groups and communities to join and support, find ways to engage that will sustain you and help sustain others, because grassroots power is the most reliable power we have left. This week on Patreon, I'll be answering questions submitted by listeners at the Democracy Defender level and higher about ways to protect our democracy, what we, the people can do to take back our country, what Biden and Congressional leaders must do. Check that out in this week's early show, available to Patreon subscribers at the Truth Teller level and higher. Now, on with the show.
Andrea Chalupa:
Today, I am joined by actor, producer, designer, mother and podcast host of Sorry Not Sorry, and the author of the new book, Sorry Not Sorry, about her life as an activist and the tough and necessary lessons she's learned about doing the grind and being a good ally. Welcome to the show, Alyssa Milano.
Alyssa Milano:
Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be with you. Thank you.
Andrea Chalupa:
I'm thrilled to finally have this conversation with you.
Alyssa Milano:
Yay.
Andrea Chalupa:
I want to share a personal story as we get going. I'm going to try not to get emotional.
Alyssa Milano:
It’s okay. I’m so emotional these days, so go for it.
Andrea Chalupa:
I know, there's just a lot. We're going to do a lot of venting, a lot of releasing a lot of... all of it today. So, I want to start by lifting the veil on your celebrity. Donald Trump coming to power with the Kremlin's help was, of course, a surreal and shocking time. One of the many things that made that time seem so weird, other than the obvious horror and mass destruction, was that suddenly, out of the blue, I found myself friends and joining forces with complete strangers across the country to fight for our democracy.
Alyssa Milano:
Mmmhmm (affirmative)
Andrea Chalupa:
And one of those complete strangers who became a friend during that time of hell was you.
Alyssa Milano:
[laughs] That time and hell. I mean, you know, misery loves company. We all sort of bonded on that hell.
Andrea Chalupa:
But I want to share what that was like, because I want people to see you how I see you, which is not Alyssa Milano, the actor my husband had a crush on while growing up, but a human being—one that taught me a lot when we were in those trenches together. I did not forget.
Alyssa Milano:
Thank you.
Andrea Chalupa:
I watched you drive voters to the polls for Jon Ossoff in that first big race in Georgia and deal with the frustration of coming so close in that election. I remember I was in Kyiv at the time and DMing with you going, “It's okay. You did a great job. You worked so hard.” And then I watched you then redouble your efforts to keep fighting. And around that time, or shortly thereafter, you came over to my place for dinner in Brooklyn. And you arrived with a stack of materials about election security and necessary steps that we need to do for that issue.
Alyssa Milano:
[laughs] Just some light reading.
Andrea Chalupa:
Yeah, exactly. It was like, All right, so I guess we're not drinking? You came with this, like, let's get down to business energy about doing all that urgent work. And also, huge kudos to you. When the media was still debating whether Trump was or was not a Kremlin asset, you gave me a platform on your podcast, Sorry Not Sorry, and your website, Patriot Not Partisan, to share horrific insights about the history of Kremlin aggression and why that issue is so urgent and core to everything we're up against, because it's all corruption at the end of the day. You've always been there for me and you've always worked so hard to bring people together, and that was one of the many surprising friendships that helped sustain me during the unimaginable time of terror. So, I just want to thank you for that.
Alyssa Milano:
That’s so lovely. Thank you so much. And, you know, obviously the work that you have done over the years has been so influential to my work. So, I appreciate you so much. Thank you. Thank you, thank you for all that you have done. I know that this work is not for the faint of heart.
Andrea Chalupa:
Yep
Alyssa Milano:
I know how discouraging it can be at times, so thank you for waking up every morning and putting one foot in front of the other to continue to fight the fights that are worth fighting.
Andrea Chalupa:
Yeah, and that's a lot of why I wanted to do this conversation, because I think 2021 feels like a weird year where we're all processing everything. And I know a lot of friends who are incredibly active who just needed to check out. They needed to check out and we just, we don't have the luxury to do that, obviously, because the fight has to continue and the other side is deeply funded and relentless, so we have to be relentless too.
Alyssa Milano:
Yeah, they're not resting.
Andrea Chalupa:
No, they're not.
Alyssa Milano:
They’re not checking out. They're not taking a breath.
Andrea Chalupa:
Yeah, so this was good to check back in with you and just be like, you know, just sort of like a breathing space, if you will. So, I want to get into it. Obviously, you've had a very couple of active weeks. You recently got arrested. Congratulations. [laughs] So tell us a little bit about that. You were in Washington, DC fighting, protesting for Congress to finally do something for voting rights.
Alyssa Milano:
Yes. So watching the country try to pass, I mean, it's something like 425 bills that have been introduced throughout the country, making it more difficult for people to vote. Obviously, the states that are introducing these bills are red states. I mean, it's so blatant. And by the way, when we were reminiscing about years ago, when we were in Brooklyn, I feel like we have literally said every single thing along the way—every strategy, every ounce and kernel of corruption along the way—we've been like, Oh, hello, does anybody see what's happening here? Anyone that can actually do something about this? Does anyone see this? And so again, we are faced with voter suppression. 19 states have enacted 33 bills making it more difficult for people to vote. Of course, that rests on the shoulders of communities of color—Black and Brown people.
Alyssa Milano:
I got to this point before the arrest where I just started getting really annoyed with… I mean, I'm just going to say it and be super honest and know that it's not the politically correct thing to say, but the lack of progress that we have made on the things that we sent this administration to do, the things that we kept the House to do, the things that we won the Senate to do, and I just got to this point where I was like, Well, which one of these things that the promise hasn't been kept yet is most important? And I kept going back to the fundamentals of, Well, if we don't have fair and free elections, what are we as a nation? And so it seemed like it was the right thing to focus on. And so Ben Jealous, who's the president now of People for the American Way and I'm on the board. He said, “Would you come to DC and, you know, risk arrest for voting rights?”
Alyssa Milano:
And I was like, “Yes. Yes, that's what I need right now.” Because I think the thing that is... For those that have a hard time staying in the fight, I think they don't inject themselves with that on-the-ground energy of a protest, of a March, of a rally, of risking arrest, all of those things that are inseparable from activism and advocacy work, except we've gotten so lazy. Now nobody wants to leave their house anyway, and rightfully so. I understand that. Social media has made it so easy for us to just be like, “Okay, I'm just going to send out a tweet and then I'm going to be done with it.” And I feel like it is those moments where you are boots on the ground, where you are locking hands with sisters and brothers who are in the same fight that reinvigorates you and your soul to keep going.
Alyssa Milano:
So, yeah, so I got arrested. And it just so happened that the march was also going to be the same week as the hearing for the Equal Rights Amendment. And so I was like, if ever an opportunity to spend four days in a real, real hands on way to try to change the direction of the country. I mean, four days—so many important things in my life happened in those four days—and so then I came home and I didn't get out of bed on Saturday for all the reasons you would think. Then Monday was in preparation for Tuesday, which was the book release. You know, I've been waking up every morning at 4 o'clock to do press on the East coast.
Andrea Chalupa:
Aye.
Alyssa Milano:
And our childcare help—which I think every mother can relate to—decided that she just wasn't going to show up this week, the week that my book was going to drop. So David and I, who both have jobs—
Andrea Chalupa:
Your husband, David.
Alyssa Milano:
My husband, David. We've been juggling the book release, his job. I don't know if you saw, but there's a first look deal that I just signed on to for A&E to produce and write, so that dropped.
Andrea Chalupa:
Congratulations.
Alyssa Milano:
Thank you. So that dropped, and so it's been a very chaotic couple of weeks. And so I looked at Dave. I said, “I just want to dance. I just want to dance.” And he goes, “Okay, baby. What do you want to do?” I said, “Let's find a DJ to just come to the house. Let's just find a DJ to have an ultimate dance party and we'll invite my parents and my nephew and our best friends and their kids.” And that's what we're going to do. It's going to be like 10 of us and we're going to have a dance party tonight in the house. And I cannot wait. I'm going to have the biggest cocktail you can imagine. And we're just going to dance.
Andrea Chalupa:
[laughs] That's amazing.
Alyssa Milano:
Because sometimes you just have to dance.
Andrea Chalupa:
A trillion percent, a trillion percent. That's why I always loved the big gay dance party outside of Pence and, I think, Ivanka is house. The block party.
Alyssa Milano:
Oh, so smart. That was such smart organizing.
Andrea Chalupa:
Yeah, I mean that’s all… I mean the revolution in Ukraine in the bitter Arctic freezing temperatures, that was a massive art festival—a music festival—that kept people in the street, before it turned into, obviously, a bloody battle zone because of Putin's puppet snipers and riot police. But the way they kept people out was they made it fun. And we always say on the show, Make art, art matters. It changes your energy. It takes back your power. And dance and all of that matters.
Alyssa Milano:
And also don't you feel like you have to find joy in this work?
Andrea Chalupa:
Without question.
Alyssa Milano:
Because if you don't find joy in the work, then they've won.
Andrea Chalupa:
Exactly.
Alyssa Milano:
They've won. You know, I think everybody's joy is so different, but we all need to just say, Okay, what brings me joy in this moment of struggle and hardship? And if you look throughout history—whether it be art, whether it be a movement, whatever it is—the most oppressive times throughout the world are always the times when such incredible art comes out of that oppression. So, I just want to dance.
Andrea Chalupa:
[laughs] I am with you on that.
Alyssa Milano:
That’s going to be the name of my next book, I Just Want To Dance.
Andrea Chalupa:
That's really, really what we need right now. So on this show, Sarah and I rail a lot about that theme you opened up with, which is, What the hell Democrats? We worked tirelessly for you. It's extraordinarily rare when you can vote out an aspiring autocrat. And we did it. We did it against great odds when he was trying to steal the election in plain sight. And it does seem like Biden and some of the Congressional leadership—not all of them. There are many, many, many superstars in the Democratic Party that are doing the Lord's work. That's clear, and we see that too and we’ve mentioned them too. But it does seem that there doesn't seem to be that urgency for filibuster reform or the pressures that we're under. It's game over if we don't fight their voter suppression through those major voting rights acts.
Andrea Chalupa:
And that requires, of course, filibuster reform. You, in your book, talk about how you regularly have conversations with both Democrats and Republicans, legislators on both sides of the aisle. You are in a position—obviously, you're Alyssa Milano, you pick up the phone, people take your call—so you're in a position to actually have the ear of a lot of powerful people who have the power to actually save our democracy. What are you hearing? What is your sense? I mean, obviously you're frustrated, just like we are. From the conversations you're having, what is your read on all of this right now?
Alyssa Milano:
So, I think we have to separate a little bit of what's going on here, because as far as the Build Back Better bill and the negotiating that seems like, you know, that there was infighting with the Democrats and all of the things that the media… You know, I was thinking about it last night and I was gonna write a tweet about it, but I couldn't find the words. But I'll try to figure it out here. When there's not legitimate opposition to create division, meaning the Republicans and the nastiness between both sides and not being able to get anything done for the American people—because there is not that tension, because Trump is out—even though the tensions there, but it's not like it was—I think the media is creating division within the party. And I just want to remind people that it's two people. It’s two assholes.
Alyssa Milano:
It's Kyrsten Sinema and it's Joe Manchin. It's not the entire party. Now, that is separate from the fact that I think that we rightfully elected a president who was not going to rock the boat, who was going to stay very centrist. And the reason why I think that was rightfully so is I'm of the belief that if we went extreme right, and then went to what could be considered extreme left, that's not good for the party either. So, you know, if we had gone super progressive after Obama (who turned out to be a centrist) that wouldn't have been as jarring, but the idea that we were going to go all the way right to all the way left freaked the American people out. So they were like, You know what? We're just going to vote safe in the primaries, and that's what we got. And so what that means is you have a very caring, dear man who is afraid to rock the boat because he doesn't want to sow the seeds of more division.
Alyssa Milano:
And so things like reforming the filibuster when he is such the old school institution guy who was in the Senate, who is very aware of the filibuster, and I think he was just like, I can't push anyone to do this because then they're gonna use it against... You know, all of the things that he was freaked out about. But the thing is, there are so many easy wins. We're going so big, which is great and we should be because American people are struggling and we are very close to a fascist, horrible thing. I think that the idea to not rock the boat is instinctual in this president. And I think that we need to figure out what those easy wins would have been to ease into a bipartisan mentality after the division of the Trump regime versus the Democrats.
Alyssa Milano:
And what I mean by that is there's been a bill that I think passed the House, but it was a bill on civics lessons in high school. Like, can't we start there? Can't we just admit that part of the problem is we've taken out of the education system—and maybe by design—how the country is supposed to function and what it means to live in a democracy? Can't we start there? And there's so much on his platform. I went back the other day and looked at the Biden platform that he ran on, and there's so much that's not crazy controversial that I feel like we could have eased into the Reconciliation Package and eased into these bigger moments. And I'm just fearful that because we didn't find common ground at the beginning of this administration, there's going to be nothing that gets done.
Andrea Chalupa:
Also we've seen, again and again, Lucy with the football, moving the football for Charlie Brown. It's the Democrats, again and again, trying to play ball with Mitch McConnell and the Republican Party that—according to studies, including one major one out of Europe—is increasingly authoritarian. So it's like, you can't negotiate in good faith with bad faith.
Alyssa Milano:
But what you can do is make them look really bad. So my point is, like, raising the debt ceiling, that's a really big fucking deal. No matter what the money is going towards, it's necessary, but it's a big deal. And fiscally conservative people see that as a big loss. So we're just going to never get anything done because we can't communicate and the American people are just going to struggle? Like, I get it, authoritarian... By the way, McConnell's going to be out soon enough anyway. I really believe that.
Andrea Chalupa:
You think so?
Alyssa Milano:
He’s so old. Are you kidding? His skin is falling off of his-
Andrea Chalupa:
Well, look at Grassley. Look at Feinstein.
Alyssa Milano:
I literally sat in the impeachment hearing from a bird's eye perspective, from like a nest perspective in the balcony. Grassley took meticulous notes the entire time, every single thing that was said, in this little serial killer handwriting, I could not get over it. But then McConnell's skin is falling off. I'm telling you, he's not going to be there forever. He's not there, then what happens?
Andrea Chalupa:
Somebody that he's been training will take his place. They're really like good about that.
Alyssa Milano:
Like who?
Andrea Chalupa:
They have ALEC. They have the Federalist Society. They have a whole dark money-funded network of talent that they're developing. The young college Republicans. I don't know.
Alyssa Milano:
No, but who that can step into a majority or minority leader position? Who, who? Ted Cruz?
Andrea Chalupa:
No one likes Ted Cruz.
Alyssa Milano:
Exactly! This is my point.
Andrea Chalupa:
They all suck. They all... Josh Hawley will try to do that role. I mean, you might have Tim Scott, who's a gaslighter. Like, they're fine. They have no shortage of-
Alyssa Milano:
It’s going to be very big shoes to fill. We can't continue obstructionist politics because more people will go to bed hungry than the 25 million that are right now. Are we just going to go, “You know what? Fuck it.” I mean, authoritarianism… No, we have to keep fighting and we have to keep trying. We have to try, try, try to figure out the common ground. And again, the Democratic Party is mainly on board with this, except for two fucking people who, who knows who they're bought by.
Andrea Chalupa:
Well, the US Chamber of Commerce and the Koch political network. But I want to point out that if the players change, the culture remains and that culture is propped up by an ever expanding network of far-right propaganda. You have Fox News, which is a kingmaker. You've got One American Network propped up by AT&T. So you have this whole network of corporations that are openly funding people that try to overthrow our democracy. So, I think new talent will emerge out of this culture that's deeply embedded and it's the culture that's troubling. It's the culture that's enduring. So I think the big problem is that that storm of white terrorists that tried to overthrow our democracy, they didn't come out of nowhere. They traveled all across the country and now they're storming school boards, and now they're running for office, and now they're embedding themselves in local government. Now, they're going to try to oversee the laws of all these states, including voting laws, education, laws, environmental laws.
Alyssa Milano:
Yeah, it's horrifying.
Andrea Chalupa:
So it's this long-term fight that we're all in. And I think, to your point, it's like having an institutional president when our institutions are being corroded from within by this ongoing authoritarian threat. It's hard. It's hard to play by the same rules when the other side's burning the rule book. So I think what's really interesting is sort of how do you have a new class of public servants and activists to meet the moment, to have clear eyes on the threat?
Alyssa Milano:
I mean, I'm going to say something that's super unpopular. There have been many Democrats that I have worked with in my activism over 20 whatever years that have been equally as... I'm not going to say corrupt, but as invested in their own power and ego and greed.
Andrea Chalupa:
Oh, without question.
Alyssa Milano:
My thing is, if we keep sowing the division, people are not going to have the tough conversations. What happens when people are not going to have the tough conversations is they're going to keep electing— because they're living in their silos—they're going to keep electing people that are being groomed rather than being open enough to say, “You know what? I'm going to sit down and talk to a Republican,” not necessarily because I want to sit down with Ted fucking Cruz—which I did—but because I want people to see that these conversations can happen regardless of outcome.
Alyssa Milano:
Otherwise, if we don't look at this as a human level and we're just going into this as like, We got to change the politics before changing the social... That's not how things work. We've got to change the social temperature, the social culture of division, the social culture of white supremacy, of misogyny, and then things hopefully will follow. But it's definitely not going to happen in reverse, because if it happens in reverse, everyone's going to think the other person is corrupt. That means our side is going to think their side’s corrupt. Their side thinks that our side is corrupt. It's not healthy for the nation. So I would just offer to your listeners to have the tough conversations with people that think differently than you do. And my thing is like, ask them, Can we have a conversation? Are you ready to hear some of the things that I have to say? Can we promise each other that it's not going to get volatile?
Alyssa Milano:
Once we're able to do that and relate to each other as a community and as human beings, I believe in my heart that human beings will then make the right choice at the ballot box. But right now, the divide? There's no fucking way, because they think we're as crazy as we think they are. Literally, they think we're as corrupt as we think they are. So, that's an impasse. I don't know how that gets better unless there's, you know… And I think the scariest thing about all of this time—oh my gosh, oh my gosh, it scares the out of me—is that now with Q, there is this big umbrella of hate, right? It used to be the white supremacists organized with the white supremacists, and the misogynists organized with the misogynists, and the anti-semitics organized with the anti-semetics. Now, they're all organized together and it's all one big, crazy group of hurt and pain and hate. And I'm interested in how—not what's going to happen next, because I still feel as an activist that we can control that—but how we got here so that it doesn't happen throughout history, again, to this nation that I love more than anything that I have.
Andrea Chalupa:
One thing I want to touch on is that it is absolutely necessary for us to learn how to have difficult conversations with people who totally see the world differently. That was a big solution that came out of the Black Lives Matter protests of 2020, where nonwhite people were saying, Hey, white people, wake up and have conversations with your friends, your family members. Know how to talk about this. Don't just put this all on us to solve white supremacy. You need to learn.
Alyssa Milano:
Yeah, you need to organize white people, organize your own people against racism.
Andrea Chalupa:
Yeah. You need to learn how to have these conversations. You need to learn, educate yourself, then pass it on. And that's difficult. That's awkward. And you have to risk difficult and risk awkward. So, in your book, you do talk about being an important ally and the pitfalls that white people, people of privilege who are born into the power structure of white supremacy and don't have the same daily threats and microaggressions that we would never imagine, as white people, that they have to go through raising kids in that power structure and all of it. So, could you talk about what you've learned about being a good ally and sort of the steps people should take and sort of where you've grown in that area that you want to share with others so they can be aware?
Alyssa Milano:
Yeah. I mean, I think the most important thing about being a good ally is, well, a few things. One is I feel so incredibly blessed that I have this platform that I can misstep and other people learn from my missteps. And I think that's really important because I think so many people are fearful of even getting into the fight because they don't understand what words to use or, or just any of it because they don't have the lived experience. And the thing about being an ally and the reason why you are an ally and not, you know, the person who is the oppressed is that we don't have the lived experience. So I think part of the blessing of the opportunity that I get is I get to kind of throw stuff out there with the purest intention, and if I mess up, I hope that people learn from my mess up.
Alyssa Milano:
And then I hope that I just continue to learn and mess up better the next time. And, mind you, this is not even about the people that move in the activism or advocacy space. This is more about… Because we have access to learn things, right? To call an organizer and say, “I'm a little confused as to which fight I should be fighting on this issue because it's so intersectional.” But people across America who are in like Dubuque, Iowa, who believe in equality and equity for all and all of the things that we fight for, but they don't know how,or they don't know what words to use, I never want them to feel like they shouldn't be in the fight because they're terrified to misstep. It's okay to misstep. And, in fact, I would say the people who are suffering from the system of oppression don't expect allies to be perfect.
Alyssa Milano:
They just expect, if someone speaks up, to be conscious of it and listen to the people who are closest to the pain. And so I think that that's super important, but also, I think part of being an ally is taking risks. But the thing that I—and I have a whole chapter in my book called “Cancel Culture is Canceled”—because I think that there is a big difference between holding someone accountable and being horrible to someone for trying to do the right thing and misstepping. And I think it's really dangerous, the message that we're sending. And it's biological, by the way. Call out culture is such because it lights up certain parts of the brain that is the reward center and releases dopamine. So, if you're publicly calling someone out and it's getting attention, you're getting all sorts of brain reactions that say that that's the right thing to do.
Alyssa Milano:
What I fear that it does is that it just, other people see it and they're like, Well, I'm not getting involved in that fight because—especially people in the public eye who are like, Well, I'm not gonna, I can't afford to lose any of my popularity. And it's the same thing with likes on Instagram for, you know, fashion influencers. It lights up the same part of the brain. And I, in the book, talk about how the parallel between being an actor and getting applause or laughter and being a performance activist and getting likes and retweets—same part of the brain lights up. Same part of the brain lights up. Just as dangerous. And so I would just like for people to think, especially people in movement spaces, about ways that they can call people in, instead of calling people out and that we should shift the phrase from Cancel Culture to Accountability Culture.
Alyssa Milano:
I can't even begin to tell you the amount of very seasoned politicians, advocates, organizations even—which is crazy—that I've had private conversations with about, you know, this feels ableist or, listen, it's not up to you to comment on the trans community, or it's not up to you to have a problem with the phrase “Defund the Police.” Let's listen to the people closest to the pain. It would be like someone telling Tarana Burke, like, “Yeah, no, #metoo, I don't know what that means. Maybe you should shift it to something else.” White people don't get to control movements because they're uncomfortable with terminology. It's crazy, and another form of misogyny and white supremacy in those two examples.
Andrea Chalupa:
I want to ask you about me too. Activist Tarana Burke, who has a long career working with survivors of sexual violence, especially Black girls, founded the Me Too movement in 2006 to raise awareness of how insanely common sexual violence is against girls and women. In 2017, when serial predator Harvey Weinstein was finally getting taken down by investigative reporting and brave survivors, you promoted the #metoo hashtag, shared your story, and called on women to share theirs. I was one of those women, and that was the most liberating experiences I had because I had carried the shame of my sexual assault for so long. And when I put it out there on Twitter with #metoo, it was gone. The shame was gone. And all the women that were flooding Twitter with #metoo, it was just, I've never seen anything like it. Women in the press who are more seen as sort of straight shooter serious reporters were breaking that wall with the audience and sharing their humanity, what they survived, with #metoo. And some people that couldn't even bring themselves to share details just wrote simply, “#metoo.”
Alyssa Milano:
That's why I was so powerful.
Andrea Chalupa:
Yeah. And I watched men on Twitter being gobsmacked. There was just an avalanche of survivors, just finally speaking out. And it was such a terrifying, heartbreaking, but liberating moment. I would like to hear from you, what was that like for you, that experience launching it? And was that just a moment? Where are we now, especially with Hollywood, which is such a man's industry, it's disgusting.
Alyssa Milano:
It’s getting so much better though, I have to tell you.
Andrea Chalupa:
Is it?
Alyssa Milano:
Oh yeah. Yes.
Andrea Chalupa:
Okay. So tell us about that from your perspective, launching that, because that was big. That went worldwide. Russia, which has a big domestic violence issue, it spread there in its own form. So what was that like? And tell me, where are we now with, especially—especially—with the rampant misogyny historically plaguing Hollywood?
Alyssa Milano:
Well, first of all, I sent out the tweet… Actually a friend of ours was the person that sent me the screengrab of that tweet, Charlotte Clymer, who's an incredible trans activist. And she's like, “You know, I don't know, this is floating around Facebook, if you feel like you can…” She's like, “I can't do anything with this, but maybe you can.” So I sent out that tweet, not having any idea about Tarana Burke's work at all, which I didn't know about for, I don't know, a good three days, and yeah, it was completely and totally overwhelming. And the thing that I did not expect was the personal toll that not dealing with my own sexual assaults—plural, sexual assaults—that what sending that tweet would do for me and my life, which I'm so grateful for.
Alyssa Milano:
And I think the beauty of that movement… The initial tweet didn't even have the hashtag in it, but the beauty of that moment was that it evolved over a few days into a movement. And it's something that I knew social media was capable of because I got into Twitter because of the Arab Spring uprising and started following protesters in Iran. And so I knew that the potential was there. And then like day three, I was made aware of Tarana Burke's work and got in touch with her and, you know, basically I was like, I'm so glad that there is you because I'm feeling completely and totally overwhelmed. And thank God, this is your thing and you actually know what you're doing, because this is going to be messy. I'm just letting you know right now, this is going to be messy. I'll never forget it.
Alyssa Milano:
She actually, much to her empathetic credit, I want to say, five days into it, she called me and she goes, “You know what? I was just thinking, how are you doing?” And I was like, Oh my God, this woman is a saint, and I'm not okay. And just to have someone know that I wasn't okay in that moment was really special. But I’ve got to tell you, you know, and this is a time when Twitter wasn't trying to change the hashtag trending topics based on how long it's been up there. Now, nothing trends for a week, right? In the top 10. But #metoo trended for a week. And also, all the social networks. It was not just Twitter. It was Facebook, it was Instagram. People were talking about their own experience. And I think the joy of it was that we didn't have to call out our abusers if we were not comfortable doing so, that we didn't have to conform into society's idea of being a sexual violence survivor and what that meant we needed to do, and how we needed to that, and charges that needed to... It just became our voice.
Alyssa Milano:
And what that did was, we had heard so much about Harvey and all the shit that he had to lose, right? Like, all the things that were at stake for him, and what it did was it just shifted it enough where it was like, No, this isn't about them. This is about us. This is about how we've been hurt. And so, I think the power in it was because people felt that they could just stand in solidarity, didn't have to name people, say exactly what happened, they could just use those two words and really make a difference. I realized that it was a global phenomenon when my UNICEF rep called me—I’m an ambassador for UNICEF and I haven't been since 2003—but she called and said, “So I just want to let you know that #metoo made it to a small village in Ethiopia where four little girls were being abused by a teacher and they went to the authorities.”
Alyssa Milano:
So that's pretty amazing. And that's when I knew like, Wow, this is bigger than any people. This is... It's time. There was a huge reckoning because of people holding people accountable, you know, and it's much like this horrible situation—tragic situation—of the accidental shooting that happened on the set of Rust. And it's equally as infuriating, which is, it wasn't until people in the entertainment industry came forward about their own abuse, or that the shooting accident happened to a celebrity, that we start to notice. But in Rust’s case, I just want to say that there were almost 3,000 accidental deaths so far this year of gun violence. We're paying attention now because a celebrity pulled the trigger. It’s very similar. And so I think social change is always what happens first. It's these conversations that are started from heartache and tragedy.
Alyssa Milano:
And I think, to tie it back to Tarana, what she does so powerfully is, it's not about the bigness of it. It's about the individual attention, the individual healing. What she does is really spectacular. As far as where we go from here... You know, I think there have been a lot of changes that have been made. Obviously, it's never enough. I'm going to say quite honestly that the shift in the entertainment industry has been powerful, quick. There's still work to be done, but if we think about where we were four years ago, I mean, it's pretty incredible. And so I think, you know, this goes directly to my work for the Equal Rights Amendment, because I got the question a lot and I still get the question a lot: Where do we go from here? And I would just say that the reason why there is gender based violence, sexual assault, discrimination of any kind—I would even go to... We could go to racism.
Alyssa Milano:
We could go to how we've oppressed the LGBTQ+ community. When our founding document is not inclusive—of women, of Black people, of trans people, nonbinary people—there is always going to be room for discrimination. And we have the opportunity to fix that. And we've done it 27 times. We've fixed the Constitution 27 times as we've evolved as a nation. And so my work in the Equal Rights Amendment is to give women—trans women, nonbinary people—Constitutional protection that is the same as any cisgendered man. And my hope with that is… because Section 2 of the ERA, which we don't really talk about, is the ability that Congress would have to pass legislation and policy to make gender-based discrimination not a state issue, but a federal issue. So, I'm hopeful that once we get the ERA in the Constitution, that a lot of this will rest under the strict scrutiny that other discrimination is investigated in.
Andrea Chalupa:
That would be amazing. It basically embeds the Me Too Movement in the Constitution. What are the next steps for the ERA? Where is it now?
Alyssa Milano:
So, we have ratified 38 states. We did not do it in the arbitrary deadline that Congress, in 197, said you can ratify, but it's got to be in eight years. And then it was extended to 10 years. By 1982, only 35 states had ratified. Just to give you an idea of how far we've come: All of a sudden, out of nowhere—we thought it was dead. All of a sudden, out of nowhere, this queer Black state Senator named Senator Pat Spearman decided to resurrect it. Nevada—after the Women's March, after Me Too, after Trump was elected—became the 36th state to ratify out of the clear blue sky. And then Illinois became the 37th state. And then Virginia became the 38th state. So this is not a debate anymore. It's over. We won. The ERA has passed. Now what we have to do is get this arbitrary timeline lifted. And so I testified in front of Congress a couple of weeks ago on behalf of Jackie Speier and her bill to lift the arbitrary deadline. Then there's SJRes.1 in the Senate that is a bipartisan bill where Cardin and Murkowski are both co-sponsors that would do the same. And then once that happens, then we have Constitutional equality for gender diverse and women.
Andrea Chalupa:
That's wonderful. Well, thank you for all your work there. And I want to ask you as a mother—because Sarah and I fight like hell through this show because we want our kids not to have to deal with these assholes when they're older—as a mother, how are you raising your kids given all the many crises we're being hit with; the threat of authoritarianism, climate crisis, all of it. How do you handle all that and what do you try to instill in your children? Because sometimes it can feel hopeless. Like, what kind of world am I going to leave them with?
Alyssa Milano:
For sure. And that's why I think it's really important that parents are honest with their kids so that their kids don't make the same mistakes as our generation did. But also, I think it's really important that we're gentle with that honesty. And it comes from not a place of seeing us be angry or exacerbated, but from a place of seeing us do the work to fix it. And I think that also we have to meet kids to where they are at that point in their life emotionally and just brain development-wise. And so, you know, we talk about things like consent in my family, but we don't talk about consent for sex. We talk about consent…. “Milo, Bella doesn't want you to play with her toy. Did you ask her first?” “No, mom, I didn't.” “Okay. Well, ask her if you could play with it.” “Bella, can I play with your toy now?” “No.” “No means no, Milo. No means no. So you can't play with her toy. You can't take it away from her. You can't.” So, you know, we try to teach the lessons in our house that instills a certain moral compass but also a drive to fix what is broken.
Andrea Chalupa:
So what is your battle plan for 2022 and the midterms? Do you have anything set up yet? I know we're going to be probably doing something leading up to that.
Alyssa Milano:
I think we’ve got to get serious about getting some of these bills passed in whatever way we have to get them passed, especially voting rights. Leading up to that, I think the next step in all of this is to really—now that reconciliation is done—we really need to focus on reforming the filibuster, if not getting rid of it. And so I think that's the next step. And then it's got to be a voting rights. It's gotta be the Freedom to Vote Act. It's gotta be the John Lewis Voting Advancement Act, and it's gotta be DC statehood. If we could get that done, or at least appear like we're going to get that done, I think we'll be okay in the midterms. But, you know...
Andrea Chalupa:
Are you optimistic?
Alyssa Milano:
No, I'm not overly optimistic, but that doesn't mean that won't change in the next four months, right? Like, I think as of today, I'm like, Ooh, we're gonna lose the House. But who knows where it… Let's see what happens after the holidays. Let's see what happens to our economy as the Reconciliation starts going into effect, let’s see what happens, you know? And if people start feeling positive impact from this bill passing, then we have a good shot, but it needs to happen quickly.
Andrea Chalupa:
All right, thank you so much, Alyssa Milano. The new book is Sorry Not Sorry and it wraps up a lot of these big things and more that we've been covering today. Thank you for coming to Gaslit Nation.
Alyssa Milano:
Thank you so much. I adore you and I appreciate you and thank you for sharing your platform with me.
[Roll Credits]
Andrea Chalupa:
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