Support LGBTQ Youth: The Raquel Willis and Lindsay Amer Interview
We’re excited to welcome two very special guests to Gaslit Nation to bring some much needed light: Raquel Willis, a leading Black transgender activist and Director of Communications for the Ms. Foundation, and Lindsay 'Lindz' Amer, the creator and co-host of the YouTube channel Queer Kid Stuff. As the summer rages on, and so does the pandemic and corruption in the White House, it’s never been more important to support the next generation of light-makers -- LGBTQ youth. Here's how.
Andrea Chalupa:
Welcome to Gaslit Nation. I'm Andrea Chalupa, a journalist and filmmaker and the writer and producer of the journalistic thriller, Mr. Jones, available now. We're grateful and honored to welcome to the show two inspiring experts who will be sharing their advice and insights for both LGBTQ youth and their families stuck at home together during this pandemic, and how to help navigate this difficult time and build a more inclusive and safe environment. Our guests are Raquel Willis, a Black transgender activist, writer, and media strategist dedicated to elevating the dignity of marginalized people, particularly Black transgender people. She is the former executive editor of Out Magazine and a former national organizer for Transgender Law Center, TLC. In 2018, she founded Black Trans Circles, a project of TLC focused on developing the leadership of Black trans women in the South and Midwest by creating healing justice spaces to work through oppression-based trauma and incubating community organizing efforts to address anti-trans murder and violence.
Andrea Chalupa:
During her time at Out Magazine, she published the Trans Obituaries Project to highlight the epidemic of violence against trans women of color, and developed a community-sourced 13-point framework to end the epidemic. This project was nominated for a GLAD media award. Raquel is a thought leader on gender, race and intersectionality. She'll be releasing her book, The Risk it Took to Bloom, her debut essay collection about her coming of identity and activism, with St. Martin's Press in 2021.
Andrea Chalupa:
Our other guest is Lindsay (Lindz) Amer, who creates LGBTQ and social justice media for kids and families. Lindz writes, produces and co-hosts Queer Kid Stuff, an original LGBTQ educational web series for ages three and up. They also produce and host a brand new family friendly podcast called Activist You, where they explore social justice topics through interviews with kid and youth activists. They are the founder and CEO of Queer Kids Studios, a multimedia production company based in Portland, Maine, making queer-focused, intersectional, all ages media. Before we start the interviews, we're going to play a clip from Lindsay Amer's Ted Talk, and also a clip from Raquel Willis speaking at the Black Trans Lives Matter rally in Brooklyn in June. We'll link to both videos in our show notes for this episode.
Lindz Amer:
Lesbian, gay and bisexual teens are more than three times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers. And transgender teens are almost six times more likely. According to one study, roughly one third of homeless youth identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or questioning, and about 4% of homeless youth identify as transgender, compared with 1% of the general youth population surveyed. According to the Human Rights Campaign, there have been 128 killings of trans people in 87 cities across 32 states since 2013, and those are only the reported cases. And 80% of those killings were of trans women of color. The queer situation is bleak, to say the least.
Raquel Willis:
And so let today be the last day that you ever doubt Black trans power. So when they try to erase somebody's bold, beautiful figures, they build out infrastructure, they build our organizations on their foundation. They've had white cis, queer sometimes, people in leadership. I might get in some trouble for saying this–and yes, the legislation matters–but white queer folk get to worry about legislation while Black queer folk are worrying about our lives.
Andrea Chalupa:
So I am here with two greats for LGBTQ rights, Lindz Amer and Raquel Willis. Thank you so much for coming on Gaslit Nation today. The purpose of today's discussion is to reach out to our LGBTQ friends out there listening, and their families and friends, whoever they may be sheltering in place with during this zombie apocalypse with no end in sight, and just to say that we see you, we love you, we support you. You are not in this alone. And we especially want to talk to young people because high school has been disrupted. Junior high has been disrupted. Going off to college has been disrupted. And those are times where people find themselves. You find yourselves through your friends, through your heartache, through your boyfriend, girlfriend, your loves. And you come out. You come out of the closet. You find yourself.
Andrea Chalupa:
And so for youth stuck at home today, maybe in homes that may not fully understand you, or you don't feel safe in, we want to talk to you. We want to reach out to you, and we're going to do that with this conversation with these two amazing experts who are remarkable in their work for human rights and inclusiveness and equality. We're so grateful for all that you do. And so we want to just start by asking you both, what advice–and we'll start with Lindz, and then we'll go to Raquel. So Lindz, what advice do you have for a young person that wants to come out of the closet but doesn't know how?
Lindz Amer:
Yeah. I think it's tough because of the times that we're living in right now and everything going on, in particular with quarantine because we're stuck at home, and in homes that might not be supportive. So I think that the first kind of step in that is making sure that you feel safe in your environment to come out in, and that you have kind of an adult support, so having someone who can come and back you up and be that person who can support you through that coming out process when and if it might get difficult. So I think that's the most important is to feel safe and comfortable in your space, and finding the places, even if they're not inside your household, where you feel comfortable expressing yourself, so yeah, comfort is a big part of that I think. And navigating that in quarantine makes it a lot more complicated, obviously.
Andrea Chalupa:
Raquel, what's your advice on this?
Raquel Willis:
Safety and comfort is important. I believe, especially if you're in the state of where you're trying to figure out how to come out, really be strategic and assess that safety and that comfort that Lindz was discussing. I think that there's such a cultural push, of course, around everyone being out, and of course the world that we want to live in. But we also know that sometimes folks don't respond well to you living in your amazingness and brilliance. So that means you have to do what is best for you sometimes just to simply survive.
Raquel Willis:
When I was growing up in Augusta, Georgia as a teenager trying to figure out how I was going to come out, I felt very isolated. And I think that was probably the most devastating part of that experience, was just feeling like no one understood, feeling like there was no one to talk to. And I tried different things. At that time, we did, obviously, have forums on the internet and so I found folks to connect to who were of a similar age and having similar experiences, and found community in that sense, even though I didn't really have folks in person.
Raquel Willis:
And then I also just kind of–on my own–kind of experimented with finding support in the form of an adult in my life, whether it was trying to talk to a guidance counselor, or a teacher who I felt like would be affirming. And I found a few folks who were supportive of me before I was able to kind of fully come out to my parents, so that was helpful. I think the other thing too, now there's obviously so many TV shows and so many musicians who are out, so that's a great outlet.
Raquel Willis:
For me, it was books. So I remember reading these very cheesy books about queer life, being gay. At that point, there weren't really many books about the complexity of gender, or being trans, or non-binary, but media was also an outlet. So I think finding that support, whether it's in your real life or online in terms of community, finding adults in your life who can be a support to you as you navigate, and then also finding the media that kind of expresses the life that you're currently living or the life that you want to live. And I think those things can be very helpful.
Andrea Chalupa:
So I want to talk about gender as a journey and exploring gender and gender fluidity. I think some of us in the West may have a tendency to think, "Okay, this is new. I don't understand it. Is it a trend? Is it a media concoction?” And so I think people have to understand how natural this idea of gender fluidity is and how it's always been with us, but we're finally at a point to have greater visibility, greater understanding of it, and hat's why we're hearing about it more. We've denied it for so long as a country, and now it's out, and we're talking about it. And we need to for the safety of transgender men and women.
Andrea Chalupa:
And so could you talk a little bit about that? People, children that were born a boy, or born a girl, but as they got older and got to know themselves, they felt this isn't who I am. I was born a girl, but I'm really a boy. I feel natural in the skin of a boy. I want to dress and talk and be like a boy. Could you talk a little bit about, for children listening, for teenagers listening, what that journey means and sort of how to navigate that?
Raquel Willis:
When I was really figuring out how to even articulate my gender, because I felt like I was always on a gender journey, I just didn't always have the language to talk about what I was going through or community to lean on, and much of that didn't come, unfortunately, until I was in college. But one thing that, in hindsight, I wish I had had more of an understanding of is that we are fed so many cookiecutter narratives of what it means to be any identity, but particularly being trans, or gender nonconforming, or even non-binary. And the truth is that we all have unique experiences, and so it's important for you to find ways to understand your experience, express yourself on your own terms. I reject this idea that we all have to feel a certain way to be trans. There are plenty of trans people who are comfortable with their bodies as they are and I think that we do a disservice when we don't allow space for that experience as well.
Raquel Willis:
I think the other thing too is just, I internalized a lot of the slurs and the things that I was called growing up, and it's really important, especially when you're in those early stages of figuring out your gender identity, to find spaces and people that are affirming of your experience, that don't other you because of your experience, or make you feel less than or shame around your experience. Obviously, we don't need a “yes” person for everything that we do. You need your friends and folks who will hold you accountable and all that good stuff. But when it comes to identity, anyone who is trying to make you feel less than because of your trans experience, or your gender nonconforming experience, or non-binary experience is probably someone you need to figure out how to get away from, or get out of your life.
Raquel Willis:
I think the other thing too is patience is so key. Unfortunately, we live in a society where most folks aren't exposed to authentic experiences of trans people. There are polls that say that most people say that they don't even know a trans person in their life. That's the unfortunate reality, and I think that often carries a burden of being an educator, being sometimes a therapist for the people in our lives. But you have agency in deciding how much you want to hold someone's hand through understanding your experience in general. And so I think holding that as well is very important.
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Lindz Amer:
A fact that I give in my Ted Talk and that I love saying over and over again is that there's a study from the American Academy of Pediatrics that says that most children have a solid understanding of their gender identity by the age of four. That's not true for every trans and queer and non-binary person. But looking back on my life, when I was four years old, that's when I was most authentic to my gender identity. When I hit kind of 10, 11, 12, those early kind of formative years, that's when I hit gender roles and kind of these strict stereotypes of what gender identity looks like. And that's when I grew my hair out, and that's when I pierced my ears, because I was getting misgendered so much because I was a pretty androgynous kind of like tomboy as a kid.
Lindz Amer:
And my mom got yelled at once for bringing me into the women's bathroom because people thought she was bringing her son in there. When I was at day camp when I was little, the male counselor brought me to the boys' changing room to change into my swimsuit for a swimming lesson. So there were all these experiences that kind of combined to tell me that what I was expressing as my authentic gender identity didn't have support in the world, and it took almost a decade of kind of living through that struggle to understand and come to a point where I could start thinking about myself as non-binary. And I didn't come out as non-binary and start using they/them pronouns until I was at least 25. And that was and is still a long road that I'm trying to figure out, and figuring out my relationship to my cis passing privilege, and also where I feel right within the trans community and within the non-binary community.
Lindz Amer:
And it's tough, and it's a very personal journey. And different stages of it come at different times. For me, the in was pronouns. For someone else, it might be how you express yourself and allow yourself to kind of explore those different modes of gender expression. I mean, if you're a writer, if you're a creator of any kind, expressing your gender and figuring out your gender through whatever format or mode makes the most sense for you. And I think that allowing a little bit of fluidity within that as well. There's so much emphasis on picking something and choosing something and landing on an identity and I think that perpetuates the rigidity of the systems that we're trying to kind of figure out who we are within.
Lindz Amer:
This is what I love about talking to early elementary school kids about gender identity, is that there's so much scaffolding within their lives at that age to be exploring every aspect of life and I think that gender should be included in that.
Andrea Chalupa:
So for the children listening, for the teenagers listening that are on this journey of self discovery, that may have certain feelings and they don't know are these feelings that I'm having, are those just feelings? Am I just exploring? Or am I gay? Could you share a little bit about your journey for advice for others who may need to hear it? How did you find out you were gay? How did you know?
Lindz Amer:
Yeah. It's a long kind of process. I mean, I definitely knew I was different from a young age. I mean, I would watch Disney movies and I would kind of project myself onto the male characters, and that was confusing for a lot of different reasons. But just knowing that there was something that didn't quite align with the stories I was being exposed to and the information that I had access to as a young person. Thinking back to that light bulb moment that happens for pretty much every queer person, not to generalize, but I think that there's usually a light bulb moment. And for me, that was the first time I kissed a girl. That was when I was a teenager. And it finally kind of clicked in, all of this disjointedness that I'd been feeling up until that moment, and then something kind of clicked in for me. And I was like, "Oh, okay. Gay."
Lindz Amer:
And then I didn't get to explore that in a purposeful thought process until I was in college and I started taking gender studies classes and really kind of starting to understand what the word queer means, how that kind of integrated into my identity as well. And it takes a while, and I think it's the same thing with gender. You have to have patience. I think for me, it was a little bit easier for me to pinpoint my sexuality than it was to pinpoint my gender.
Lindz Amer:
It's different for every person. Sometimes your gender identity comes first and sexuality comes later. I think finding community is the most important part. I mean, I did the whole falling in love with my best friend thing when I was a teenager, as a lot of us probably have. And it was definitely a struggle, but someone was there for me in that difficult part of my life. And I'm endlessly grateful for someone who was supporting me through that. So I think, yeah, a lot of what we're talking about throughout all of this is patience and finding those people who support you and finding those outlets for exploration and kind of creativity within your identity.
Raquel Willis:
My journey, I think I said a little bit about this a second ago, but a lot of it was internalizing what I was being called by peers. I was ostracized and bullied for everything from being too feminine, they would say things like, "Oh, you're gay." And we weren't really using terms like transgender at that time. There were other terms that people were using. And so it was really “gay” that I, as a label, took on for a lot of my childhood. Even though I would be sitting up at night praying–I also grew up in a very Catholic family, so that's a whole nother story–but praying that I would just wake up as a girl, and things would just make more sense, and they'd be so much more aligned for me, and I wouldn't be dealing with all this bullying. And obviously, that's a very naïve idea of what it means to even have your gender experience align with what everyone else sees, because we know that girls and women don't really have anything easier.
Raquel Willis:
But at the time, that was what I was thinking in my head. Yeah, and so it really wasn't until after I came out as gay in high school that I was in college and I met other trans people, all types of people, people were even gender queer, different terms. And I found the aspects of my identity that I had been forced to neglect for so long were really more around gender. And so that was where I kind of found language. I took gender studies courses. And when I was in college, that was when Janet Mock came out. And so, saw her in media, saw Laverne a few years later, so that was all kind of happening at the same time. And it's weird. I came out and was living in that kind of period right before this trans visibility period. So in some ways, I feel like I had a variety of experiences around just being a Black trans woman in America.
Raquel Willis:
I think those things are important to my identity, but I will say I think I didn't really get a true grasp, I think, of what it was like particularly as a Black trans woman, until after college, and I was in kind of "the real world". We're in a time unfortunately, where there is a lot of hateful rhetoric around being trans. We see it from JK Rowling and we see it from many conservative politicians. We see it also from the president of the United States now. And then of course, there's also this ongoing epidemic of violence that's plaguing in particularly Black trans folks, Black trans women. And so one of the missteps that we'll have is that we share all of these great anecdotes around what it means to come into identity, but we don't actually prepare our youth to understand that there are actually some really unfortunate things happening in this time, even beyond the COVID-19 pandemic.
Raquel Willis:
In having that real conversation, I think the other piece of it is that there are people who are fighting for you. There are activists and organizers and adults who are trying to make this world catch up to your brilliance and to your beauty and to your power. And we have been fighting for decades, for generations. Our history is so rich as queer and trans and non-binary people. We have the activists like Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera. We have gender nonconforming folks like Stormé DeLarverie. We have Miss Major, who's still with us today, and so many other elders who love you, who loved you before you were even in this world. And so even though all of that ridiculous stuff is happening, we are in a new moment and your generation is going to carry so much of this power forward, so just get ready. The best you can do right now is just take care of yourself, surround yourself with people who care about you and affirm you, and figure out the ways that you want to contribute to this movement and to this world.
Andrea Chalupa:
So beautiful. So obviously, growing up with the same friends, and you want to come out to them, what advice do you have about coming out to your friends? And how did your friends react?
Raquel Willis:
Okay. Well, I've had a couple of coming outs. Being queer and trans, a lot of your life is moments of coming out, big and small. When I was a teenager and I came out as gay at 15, I came out to a few of my close friends. They were all like, "Oh, wow." It was really just shocking at that point that anybody would own that they were queer or anything. This was the late 2000s, mid to late 2000s, that first decade. And then I had another friend who I knew had a big mouth, honey. And I was like, "You know what, you're going to do all the work for me, so I'm going to come out to you," and then it just spread. And I shouldn't say it was just her, but that was kind of my mindset in telling her.
Raquel Willis:
When it came to coming out as trans, I was in college. It was a different experience. I was an adult. So really, the conversation I was having with my family was I came with my guard up, had my shield on, and I was prepared for the worst because coming out as gay is a completely story than coming out as trans. And I was like, "Look. I'm an adult now, so if you don't affirm this experience of mine–there's no debate about it. It is what it is. You have a choice. You can affirm this experience, respect it, or not. And if you don't, then I can't have you in my life," which is not an easy thing to say, an easy conversation to cope with. But luckily, my mom, she was like, "This actually makes a lot more sense to us than you just being gay." So that was really a powerful experience.
Raquel Willis:
And then my brother and sister were affirming to different degrees. My sister was affirming. She was just like, "Okay. This is just a lot of new information." My brother, it is still a journey with him, as it is often with cisgender, heterosexual men, unfortunately. But that was kind of my experience. And I think what helped me was I did a variety of things. I focused on telling one person at a time instead of telling a million people in general. And then also, when it came to coming out as trans, I emailed letters to my family, individual letters, instead of having the on the phone conversation because I didn't want to be interrupted. And I didn't want to backtrack under the pressure. And that helped me as well. So I think it's about also just being creative about what you need in terms of a coming out experience because it's really you. It's really for you more so than it is anyone else that you're sharing your information with.
Lindz Amer:
I think that friendships and figuring out who in my family I'm most comfortable with has been a huge part of the journey of coming out. And it's the same thing, it's not just one coming out. It's many coming outs. Once you figure it out, you're not ... And you kind of come out to yourself and you decide to express that to the world, it doesn't stop ever. I mean, initially, I came out as bisexual. And when I came out–I had a small group of very close friends in high school–and when I came out to them as bisexual, they were all pretty supportive. And they, surprise, surprise, later ended up being queer as well, which is something that I think happens to kind of close knit groups of friends. I've heard this experience be echoed amongst other queer people that people they were close with in high school end up also coming out later. And that being, my coming out, being a part of their coming out journey as well, so I think that's just kind of an interesting thing that ends up happening in small circles.
Lindz Amer:
I came out to my best friend at the time, and she was very supportive. She was also queer. And I think that what was more difficult, I think, was family. And for me, I didn't come out to my family, really, until I met my first girlfriend, and kind of used that as an excuse to come out, essentially. And that's kind of what that relationship gave me is the ability to sit down with my sister over Thai food and say, "I have a girlfriend," and not necessarily having to say, "Hi. I'm gay. This is who I enjoy having sex with," because I think that's a lot of what coming out comes down to is revealing what your preferences are, and sometimes that's not something you want to talk about when the assumption is about heterosexuality and having to kind of disrupt that assumption for other people. So I think that, yeah, for me, it was family that was kind of the tough thing.
Lindz Amer:
And what ended up happening for me was I ended up coming out, but it was less an actual coming out than it was a decision to stop lying because there was so much I was doing up until that point to cover my queerness, and make sure that people wouldn't find out and figure out who I was and how I identified. And there was just a point where I got to feel like that's what was the burden. It was the lying that was the burden. It was the hiding myself that was the burden. And I just decided I felt comfortable enough at that point to say, "Okay. I'm just going to stop lying.” It's not necessarily a big Thanksgiving dinner where I come out. It's where I decide I'm going to dress the way I want to dress, and people can assume whatever they want about me. And if they have questions, that's a discussion that we can open up.
Lindz Amer:
But this is something that's very personal to me, so that was kind of my journey in the coming out space, trying to figure that out. But yeah, friendships through all of that were super important, and making sure that these are people that I wanted in my life. And my partner was really a huge part of me coming out as non-binary. She's the first person I asked to start using they/them pronouns for me. And that was a really important part of figuring out my non-binary-ness, is just hearing someone using they/them pronouns for me, and kind of discovering that feeling of almost like a gender euphoria in just hearing the right pronouns.
Andrea Chalupa:
That's a really interesting part of this, is this new visibility around gender pronouns. Do you want to be called a her, or a him, or a they/them? And so what is sort of a good way of parents talking to their youth, or youth reaching out for support? Is it sort of–should young people say, "Hey, I feel more comfortable with they/them because I'm still figuring things out"? So could you both touch on why gender pronouns and making sure you understand the right one to use with a specific person, what those are and why is it so important? I mean, you did touch on that, but I think it's worth sort of staying here for a moment because it is new. We're seeing more and more of this, and so the discussion around it is important.
Lindz Amer:
So I work with pretty young children for the most part. I work with mostly elementary school ages around ... My work is all ages, but it's primarily for three to six or seven year olds. And discussions around gender identity with kids that age is a little bit different because you're just introducing the idea of what pronoun is at that point, as they're kind of figuring out what the world is and how to process that, and then how to internalize it and figure out kind of how they self identify within all of that information. So that's kind of like a cognitive development thing.
Lindz Amer:
It's really important to not be scared of those conversations. I think that's what really gets in the way of educating young people around queerness and queer identity and trans ness, and non-binary-ness, is this idea that it's this taboo topic and if it's something that I'm not an expert in, it's something that I shouldn't talk about at all. And I think that that is way more destructive to a young person than having a conversation, maybe fumbling through it a little bit, and being transparent that maybe you're not an expert, and why don't we go on this journey of discovering what this is together? And being able to kind of have those conversations in a way that is vulnerable as a grown up, who doesn't necessarily know everything because we're fallible, too. And we need kids to understand that grown ups are not the end all, be all of this information. So I think that it's really important as parents to kind of step back and say, "I don't know everything, and we're going to kind of figure this out together."
Lindz Amer:
Being supportive in those spaces as well, and providing a positive, comforting space to have those conversations because my parents–I grew up in New York City, very liberal spaces, seemingly one of the most diverse places in the world, and my family was very open and "accepting," but I was still … they were all straight people, people who didn't understand the struggle I was going through and didn't understand the mental health around it as well. So I think that was definitely hard for me growing up and kind of figuring that out on my own. And if I'd had my family who was willing to go on that journey with me, I think that would've made things a little bit different. I see that happening a lot in the folks who watch my work and who engage with me in that way–parents who are really excited to kind of understand gender in a new way for their kids. And that's something that's really exciting to me.
Raquel Willis:
I think Lindz summed that up very well. I also think that ... Can I be frank?
Andrea Chalupa:
Yeah, yeah. Of course.
Raquel Willis:
I'm kind of drained and exhausted and aggravated that we often, as particularly trans and gender nonconforming people are forced to support folks in the basic ways that they can just respect us. Right? I actually think that the pronoun conversation is in many ways a cloud over some of the other more tangible ways that folks should be supporting trans and gender nonconforming people. I think it is a start to, obviously, call people by their names. I think even throwing out the language of “chosen”, this is just my name. Call me my name, the name that I told you to call me. I think even throwing out words and terms like “preferred”–no, these are my pronouns. Just call me my pronouns. You're saying that this is my preference, but this is just my pronoun. This is how you engage me and respect my humanity. It's not really a choice. It's not really up for debate.
Raquel Willis:
But I think the other work that needs to be happening is folks need to be holding other people accountable. Right? So it's not just enough to hold yourself accountable to getting pronounce correct, getting names correct, but it's also about you particularly for the allies, or people who want to call them allies, or comrades, or co-conspirators, to hold other people accountable who are harming trans and gender nonconforming people. We can't be the only ones teaching and advocating for ourselves. We need other people to also be in on this fight. And the institutions that we're a part of–whether it's your school, or your university, or your doctor's office, or your community organization–not enough people who aren't trans and gender nonconforming are speaking up about the ways that we are often absent from larger conversations around how to make these spaces accessible, whether it's access to the restrooms that we need to use like any other human being, whether it's access to even just being a part of how rules are set in a particular place.
Raquel Willis:
So if you're in the classroom, it's not enough to just ask what a trans or gender nonconforming child's name is. What are the other ways that they need to be supported in that space? How are you going to show up for them and hold these other children or youth accountable when those moments happen? How are you also going to have real conversations with parents, who may not be affirming of their child's experience, and you may be the only one in their life who is? Right? So how are you going to help that child strategize on relationships with their parents, or with their family that may not be affirming?
Raquel Willis:
So I think there are lots of conversations that we need to be having as well. The pronoun and name conversation is just one part of it, and we don't often get to those other pieces. I think it's also on everyone to make sure that they are also transforming the relationships and the families that they are a part of. So when you go home, don't just leave the fact that you need to respect me at this time when we're together. You need to be making sure that trans and gender nonconforming folks are respected, even when we're not even in the room. So are you having those conversations with your grandma, with your siblings, with maybe even your partner, or maybe even your own children who don't quite understand why they need to be respecting trans and gender nonconforming people? This is a creative endeavor. Right? Transforming the world is a creative endeavor, and so it takes a lot of insight to assess where you're coming from and what power and privilege you do actually hold to change things for the trans and gender nonconforming people, who may or may not actually be in your life.
Andrea Chalupa:
Thank you both so much for that. So for the young people listening, just to sum it up, what advice do you have for them for how to come out? What is some of the best advice you’ve ever heard, or that you may have for them as they're thinking about coming out?
Raquel Willis:
What helped me, again, was just, I was just online. And we weren't really even using social media like that, but we had these teen forums and you could post whatever ridiculous, sometimes embarrassing thing you went through. But also, those were some of the first spaces where I also saw the words of other queer and trans youth talking about coming out. I think one thing is just don't feel rushed. You are on your own timeframe with coming out. And again, I think silencing those feelings of shame are so important because there is a reason you probably aren't out, and it's because a lot of work has to happen in the world so that the next person can feel maybe more comfortable than you. That's how I approached it.
Raquel Willis:
Some of it was obviously coming out for myself, but it was also I know that there are other queer and trans folks and maybe this can help them, whether it's in the high school that I was in, or the college I was in–and I think now it's wild because it was a global audience in some instance–but that is important. I think also just figuring out the other pieces of your experience that you need support in as well. So the coming out piece is just the start, so hopefully you, now having that door open to dream and think, envision beyond the ways that you've had to be silent for so long. So there is an exciting element to it that we don't talk about enough either. Beyond the fear, whatever the outcome is, your truth is out there, honey. So what are you going to do next? We don't often have enough space to think about ourselves as queer and trans and non-binary people in the terms that I think other people do. Right?
Raquel Willis:
This is just one aspect of my identity. But I may be a hell of a writer. I may be an amazing soccer player, or cheerleader, or whatever. And you deserve to also just not solely be defined by one experience in your life. You get to have as expansive an experience as anybody else. And your queerness and your trans ness is not going to stand in the way of that at all. In fact, it's probably going to make you even more of a bad ass, to be honest.
Lindz Amer:
Absolutely. My advice just completely echoes that. I mean, I think that it's about cultivating those spaces around you and figuring out how to be fulfilled, even as a young person, even as someone who's queer, and striving for joy. I talk about my work a lot as about spreading queer joy, and I think that it's so important to understand that we as queer people, as trans people, as non-binary people, have a full breadth of experiences and emotions that we need to honor as well as these specific parts of our identity that color a lot of our experiences with the world. When I was a kid, I did the forums too. I was in, theater was my refuge. Theater and performance, that was a thing that I loved and was passionate about, and stories and storytelling, and figuring out how story structure works and how I could maybe contribute to that later as an actor, and then later as a writer, and now as a producer and a creator.
Lindz Amer:
And that has all been an enormous part of my journey as well with my kind of queerness baked into that, and into cultivating the voice that I have now. And it was equally as important for me to cultivate my creative journey as it has been for me to understand my gender and my identity. So understanding ourselves as full, whole people, and nurturing that wholeness is something that I think can get us through those difficult times. So maybe your gender, maybe your sexuality are things that cause you pain and are something you're struggling with right now, and that is a valid space to be in. And I think that figuring out how to manage your mental health around that is a really important skill to start honing as you're growing into all of that. But also, looking at these spaces that do bring you joy that are accessible for young people.
Lindz Amer:
If you love theater, take an acting class. Go to the theater program in your school. Figure out ways in your day to day life where you can find that joy for yourself. Reading books, reading media, and finding spaces where there is queerness represented. There's so much more now than there was when I was young. And I think a lot of what queer creators who are in those spaces of power with platforms now is we're making the work that we wish we had when we were young. I wish that I could gift my work to five year old me. And the next best thing is that a five year old now watches that, and the parent of that five year old watches my Ted Talk. So it's all about this kind of cyclical nature of how we are giving ourselves content to make us feel better as a community. I think that there's so much to be tapped into with all of that. So yeah, it's kind of about finding those escapes, but also things that make you a more well rounded person in the world, and what we can give to our community individually.
Andrea Chalupa:
So two more questions for the kids, and then we'll end on the parents. Going through junior high, high school, college, and going on this journey, how do you deal with bullying? What are some resources for kids dealing with bullying out there?
Lindz Amer:
There's a lot out there right now. The Trevor Project is an incredible resource as a suicide hotline, but also as a digital community where young people can connect with each other. I believe you have to be 13 and above to be in their online community, but that is definitely a space for young people to connect with each other. I think fandoms are also a really great place for young people to connect–particularly young queer people–over kind of different media that you're passionate about. And Trans Lifeline is a trans suicide hotline and has developed mental health resources. There are a lot of different organizations that have been popping up over years that are incredible organizations that are really supportive of youth in mental health crises, and if you're just struggling, if you're in a space that doesn't feel comfortable. Those are places you can reach out to. Yeah, those are some resources that I'm aware of. I'm sure there are many, many more that are easily findable on the internet.
Raquel Willis:
I also urge folks to always figure out what's in your community. When I was in middle and high school, that was one of the things I was like, I've said this already a lot, but I was on the internet just looking for whatever I could find. And there are a lot of smaller organizations, many of them have a lot of youths who are a part of them that you may not know that you can probably find in your local area. There are a lot of different, smaller community groups that are doing really important work that we often don't even know the names of. So I would urge you to do a search, look online to find a group that specializes in LGBTQ+ issues and experiences.
Raquel Willis:
With the bullying piece, it's so hard. I experienced a lot of bullying. I feel like most people I know have. A lot of times, it isn't even just queer and trans people who experience it as well. It's just such a difficult age frame to be in. And then of course, we're in a time where even the adults are out here acting wild, y'all. So sorry that we are having to live through that. But I think not being afraid to speak up for yourself is so key. And I know that's easy to say, but there are different ways to speak up for yourself. Even if you can't speak up in the moment when someone says something to you, or does something to you, it is still important for you to find out how to get accountability for what happened, whether it means going and talking to someone like a teacher, or another adult in your life, after the fact. That's important.
Raquel Willis:
And we have this idea, and adults have it too, this idea of, “well, I shouldn't snitch, or I shouldn't say anything because that's bad”. But I actually think, particularly when you're young, it's important to figure out how you can stand up for yourself in a way that will hold your bullies accountable. And it's important for you to say if someone has harmed you or not, to the adults in your life, so that they can support you in figuring out what needs to happen. And honestly, I remember worrying so much about turning somebody in or whatever when I was a kid. And honestly, people forget things. I don't think that this idea that you're a snitch if you try to get accountability for what happened to you is helpful. You deserve to be protected and respected.
Andrea Chalupa:
Great. So to wrap up the conversation with any youth that needs to hear any of this, obviously you guys have given a lot of great resources for young people. Are there any other books, films, documentaries, anything else that you want to turn people to, young people that may need resources right now to navigate all this?
Lindz Amer:
For me, it's a lot because I'm in the children's media space. That's a lot of what I turn to, and a lot of what I recommend to people. There isn't a lot of it, unfortunately. We still have a lot of work to do in bringing queerness to all ages media. She-Ra and the Princess of Power is a Netflix show created by Noelle Stevenson. Also, absolutely incredible, just a beautiful show, Danger and Eggs is also a series created by Shadi Petosky, who's a trans woman, and that's on Amazon. That is the gayest show I've ever seen. They end the last episode during a Pride parade, so that's a wonderful, wonderful resource. You can watch my videos for kids stuff if you really want to. There's so much incredible media out there.
Lindz Amer:
I mean, Queer YA is huge right now. Queer graphic novels are huge right now. I have Kacen Callender's new YA book on my bookshelf right now called Feelings Ever After that I am stoked to read, that I believe has ... I haven't read it yet, but I believe that the main character is Black and trans masculine, and I'm so excited to read that. In terms of graphic novels, Laura Dean is part of it, something, something Laura Dean just won an Eisner Award, and I believe that has a main queer character. There's just so much that's coming up right now. It's a really exciting time to be a queer person in media. I mean, I think that you can find something for pretty much anyone at this point. I mean, there's still obviously a lot of work to be done. But I mean, things like poems that push your boundary and bring beautiful, beautiful work and visibility to Black trans women and the beautiful history of queer in all culture to a mainstream audience is incredible. There's so much.
Raquel Willis:
If you're on social media, finding queer and trans folks to follow who are sharing their experiences is important. Social media is also a tool of empowerment for a lot of people. So that's a thing. Definitely agree, yeah, I poured my heart and soul into getting books that reflected my experience, sneaking into book stores and trying to hide my little queer books under other books because it was just so stigmatized. And it was like you were afraid. But there's so much more understanding now and access now, so that's heartening.
Raquel Willis:
And then also shows, I know there are a few movies and shows out now about teens who are LGBTQ, which is really sweet. So I remember in high school finding movies and shows about LGBTQ experience. That was also affirming as well. And some of the biggest things again that you can do is just find folks in your life, in your community, who you can look to as possibility models to support you on your journey.
Andrea Chalupa:
Final advice, and this time for the caregivers, the parents, the grandparents, the aunts and uncles, the siblings. What advice do you have for the people around LGBT youth today, sheltering in place, everybody getting on each other's nerves, gay or straight? We're all living in this new weird normal. And then on top of that, we have to navigate conversations that may be new, completely new for some people. So what advice do you have for helping families support LGBT youth?
Lindz Amer:
I think it's definitely something we've been talking about. For me, it's about you've got to do the work. You've got to just do it. It's not the burden of queer people. It's not the burden particularly of Black trans people to tell you how to treat them. You have to figure it out for yourself, and that's ... I'm being pretty frank and blunt about that, but it's so, so necessary. I mean, and it's not just about doing the work to teach yourself. You have to teach others too. I mean, it's not just about understanding queerness and the queer experience and the trans experience and the non-binary experience. It's about also understanding other spaces where you have privilege. If you're someone who's able bodied, you need to understand the disability movement. If you're someone who is white, you have to understand and begin practicing anti racism if it's something you haven't been working on before. You have to understand the indigenous experience. You have to understand the spaces where you have power to make real change just by uplifting voices that are not your own, who are more marginalized.
Lindz Amer:
And that's really an internal journey of understanding and reckoning with your own privilege and the ways in which you can use that privilege to help give other people and uplift other people who need those spaces as well. And in terms of specifically parents, it's not just about educating yourself; it's about educating your children and making sure that you're raising good people. And I think that who understand their privilege in the world, who understand where they are and what they can do, and help them make change as well because young people literally manifest a new world around them as they grow and develop. We can't make a better world without the young people after us executing that vision. And I think that it's so important that we keep doing that work every day. It's not something that you read a book about anti racism and you're immediately anti racist. That's not how it works. It's the work of every day and it's the work of understanding those larger concepts and pulling them in your day to day.
Lindz Amer:
I mean, we've been touching on this the whole interview. I'm in women led spaces a lot, and if just one cis woman talked about opening up the language of that organization to non-binary people, I would feel so much more comfortable in that space. And all it would take is one cis person to tell people to put the pronouns in their email signature. And it's that small thing that is about incremental change. And this is not something that's going to happen overnight. This is something that happens with those baby steps. But then by the end of decade, you're at the top of the staircase, maybe. So it's about collective action. And I think so much of it has to do with just putting in the work, and it is hard work, I'm not going to lie, but we've got to do it.
Raquel Willis:
Yeah. I think obviously as adults, we often think we have the answers to everything, even when it comes to conversations with youth, and that's not true. We're growing and evolving like anyone else. And actually, there's so many things that we as adults can learn from the youth, and especially if you have youth that are having a different experience than you are, especially if they are queer and trans. It's important for you to understand that there are aspects of their identity and their experience that you may never completely get. And that's okay. There's beauty in the differences. We live in a society that tells us that we should all be one particular way. We should all like one particular type of person, we should all move through the world in a certain way. And that's just not true. We know that's not true.
Raquel Willis:
What I experienced with my parents growing up was I think there was kind of this unspoken kind of shame or feelings of not being great parents, or all of these different issues. And you have to figure out how to work through that to best support your child. Those expectations that you may have had for your child, just let them wash off of your back because–really, you shouldn't have put those extra expectations on your kid in the first place, but this is the world that we're trying to build now that we know better. And don't be afraid to ask for help as well. It's not just your child that needs support, whether it's in the form of therapy, or counseling, or even finding community. You also need that so that you can best support them as well, so lean into figuring out ways to also just support yourself in your journey and evolution.
Andrea Chalupa:
Thank you both so much. You provided a lot of invaluable insights. I know I asked you a lot of questions because I wanted to make sure we covered everything. This is such an important topic and a conversation we all have to keep having. I want to ask finally. What is next for both of you with your projects? What are some things that we should look out for in all the wonderful work that you do?
Raquel Willis:
Always a lot of different things in flux. I'm working on a book, The Risk it Takes to Bloom, which will be out in 2021. I am the director of communications for the Ms. Foundation, so working on making the feminist movement more expansive but also more accountable to a lot of the things that are going on in the current moment. Yeah, and just working with the movement for Black lives on some things, so kind of doing a bunch of different things, and that's the way I like it.
Andrea Chalupa:
What's the name of your book again?
Raquel Willis:
The Risk it Takes to Bloom.
Andrea Chalupa:
Great. Okay. Well, let us know when it's available and we'll share it on the show. Okay. Lindz, what about you? What have you got going on next that we should look out for? Because I know you're both always doing wonderful stuff.
Lindz Amer:
Yeah, juggling a lot of different things at the same time. This is definitely the MO. So still working with Queer Kid Stuff. I do performances all over the country, bringing queer joy to families all over the place. Mostly, those are virtual now, but I go to libraries, schools, community centers, et cetera, bringing the material from Queer Kid Stuff into people's lives and trying to normalize queerness for young ages. I also do professional development work and speak about all of that. And I'm working on developing more educational resources around Queer Kid Stuff, so probably going to launch some after school Zoom classes around social justice soon. So there's a lot of stuff kind of coming up in that space. I'm also a writer and I'm looking to do a lot of work in development right now, bringing queer representation and characters to all ages media, so there's a lot that's coming up, so kind of watch the space essentially.
Andrea Chalupa:
Great. Well, thank you both so much. This was an incredibly inspiring interview.
Lindz Amer:
Oh, I also host a podcast!
Andrea Chalupa:
Oh, you host a podcast!
Lindz Amer:
Sorry.
Andrea Chalupa:
Okay. What's your podcast?
Lindz Amer:
Yes, sorry. I host a podcast called Activist You, where I interview inspirational kid and youth activists, so I'm really kind of getting into the youth activist movement and interviewing them, so that's been really cool. It's Activist You, Y-O-U.
Andrea Chalupa:
Wonderful. Well, I can't thank you both enough. This was so interesting and inspiring and I'm so grateful for all your insights and for sharing your stories and your leadership. The world is so lucky to have you and the work that you do. And I apologize for the internet connection. You both did a wonderful job despite the quality of the connection. Your answers came in through loud and clear and were really helpful. And thank you. I really can't thank you enough.
Raquel Willis:
Thank you.
Andrea Chalupa:
Our discussion continues, and you can get access to that by signing up on our Patreon at the Truth Teller level or higher.
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