Bad Faith
Every dictator or wannabe dictator relies on a base of support to stay in power. For Putin, Orban, and Trump, their base is Christian nationalism – claiming God wants white, straight "Christian" men to rule, even if this means violently stripping all others of their human rights. (Nevermind what Jesus actually taught in the Gospels about loving thy neighbor!)
The Republican Party has been taken over by Christian nationalists backed by American and Russian oligarchs, in a death cult commonly known as MAGA. Trump is the strongman they've been searching for over decades of laying the groundwork for turning America into a dictatorship. Here to break it down for us is veteran filmmaker Stephen Ujlaki, who delved into the terrifying game plan of Christian nationalists for his new film, Bad Faith, out April 26 and available for pre-order.
Gaslit Nation listeners who host viewing parties of Bad Faith with their friends and family can send us a photo or email to GaslitNation@gmail.com about the event for their chance to get Gaslit merch and other fun prizes, to help spread the word about this important and urgent film. This week's bonus episode, exclusively for our subscribers at the Truth-teller level and higher on Patreon, will cover Iran's attack on Israel, why Ukraine must receive the same protection as the U.S.-led coalition that defended Israel, especially as MAGA continues to block aid in the House, and reports of Paul Manafort's work for Trump in the 2024 election.
We're also launching today a NEW chat group, inspired by our recent Make Art Workshop: The Business Side of Things, to complement our current general chat group, called Victory. The Art is Survival chat group is for artists in our community to share their works in progress, discover resources, and join with a community of like-minded creatives envisioning a world beyond the dictatorships the fascists want us to believe are inevitable. Thank you to all the artists out there and those who support art for believing that another world is possible! The recording of the Make Art workshop will be published Saturday May 4th, along with the transcript and a list of resources.
To get access to both chat groups – Victory (the general chat group) and Art is Survival – all bonus shows, all episodes ad-free, exclusive invites to events, and more, be sure to sign up at the Truth-teller level or higher on Patreon.com/Gaslit. Thank you to everyone who supports the show – we could not make Gaslit Nation without you!
Show Notes:
Bad Faith documentary: https://www.badfaithdocumentary.com/
Meet Stephen Ujlaki, the filmmaker behind Bad Faith: https://sftv.lmu.edu/faculty/?expert=stephen.ujlaki
Putin Ally Declares Mike Johnson 'Our Johnson'
https://www.newsweek.com/putin-ally-declares-mike-johnson-our-johnson-1890071
Europe is already planning for what happens if Ukraine loses. It’s ugly A newly energized Russia is already escalating grey-zone operations in Eastern Europe, says Estonia’s defense minister.
Why Did U.S. Planes Defend Israel but Not Ukraine? There are lessons for other nations in the events of the past few days.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/04/ukraine-israel-war-comparison/678077/?gift=hVZeG3M9DnxL4CekrWGK3zBTrwyTVOGzmWK5yps1Kck&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
U.S., NOT ISRAEL, SHOT DOWN MOST IRAN DRONES AND MISSILES American forces did most of the heavy lifting responding to Iran’s retaliation for the attack on its embassy in Damascus.
https://theintercept.com/2024/04/15/iran-attack-israel-drones-missiles/
How Israel and allied defenses intercepted more than 300 Iranian missiles and drones
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/04/14/middleeast/israel-air-missile-defense-iran-attack-intl-hnk-ml
Andrea Chalupa (00:10.574)
Welcome to Gaslit Nation. I am your host, Andrea Chalupa, a journalist and filmmaker and the writer and producer of the journalistic thriller, Mr. Jones, about Stalin's genocide famine in Ukraine, a genocide that is continuing today under Putin, backed by Iran and North Korea and China, which is why we must ensure that Ukraine has everything it needs right now to push Russia out. Liberate the occupied territories from sadistic Stalinist occupation and win this global war of democracy versus fascism for all of us. I mean, this should be, it cannot be clear. This is a black and white battle between good versus evil and it's non, it's bipartisan. So if you want to help Ukraine win, please go to helpukrainewin.com, an urgent SOS site built by a Gaslit Nation listener where you can easily contact your reps directly through helpUkraineWin.com. Thank you very much. Thank you to everyone who came to the Gaslit Nation Make Art Workshop, the business side of things. That event ended up being two hours long and finally ended when my kids crashed the party, refusing to go to bed. So we had, we could have kept going.
So look out for a recording of that workshop along with the transcript and links to the resources referenced throughout. That will be publishing Saturday, May 4th to give us some time to prepare, given all the big breaking news. In the meantime, we're launching a chat group called Art is Survival for artists and people who love artists and want to cheer them on.
That will be exclusive to our Patreon community. This idea came out of our Q &A discussion as people shared their projects, what they're working on, and what they needed help with. So to keep that conversation going and have a resource, a community for all of us artists out there trying to stay grounded in our work and find meaning in community, we're launching this group chat. This idea came out of our Q &A discussion as people were sharing their projects, what they needed help with, what they're hoping to accomplish.
Andrea Chalupa (02:21.39)
So to keep that conversation going, we are creating this chat group, Art is Survival, to give us a place to share resources, ideas, encouragement, and just generally nerd out. I'm going to be posting about my projects, including opera, since I have a film script that's very personal to me that currently features Puccini's Tosca as a character.
So if you want to learn more about that and all the fun stuff we're all working on, us little artists, us big powerful artists in the world, join the Art is Survival chat group. Be sure to subscribe to the show on patreon .com forward slash gaslit at the truth to the level and higher to get access to that. And as well as our big general chat group where all of us just sort of hang out and share what we're reading, share our reactions to what's going on in the news. We're going to be having.
Oh, God, help us. We're going to be having convention watch parties and the big general chat group. We're going to be helping each other with getting out the vote. We're going to be sharing whatever general stuff we're working on or thinking about in the larger chat group. But now we have an extra chat group just devoted to the artists in our community and those who love the artists in our community. And that is Art is Survival. And that is launching with this episode. And again, this idea came out organically through the Make Art workshop we had last week, which was wonderful. I learned so much from the folks that shared what they're working on. It was very inspiring to hear from you all. It's very cool. We have an incredible, incredible global community of listeners. You are not alone out there listening to Gaslit Nation. You have some remarkable people who are beside you listening to this show, very aware of what's going on and very aware of where the solutions are on how we overcome this and playing the long game and linking arms and refusing to abandon each other.
And I love you all so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you. We are going to be covering the big news of the weekend, Iran attacking Israel with a swarm of drones and missiles, and the US leading a coalition of allies to block the vast majority from the sky, saving the lives of countless civilians, homes, buildings, and critical infrastructure. As Biden takes a victory lap over this, Ukrainian civilians are watching and going, wait.
Andrea Chalupa (04:41.006)
Wait a minute, why can't the US do that for us? Meanwhile, the largest electricity plant just got destroyed in Kiev. All right, so again, we're doing the bare minimum for Ukraine. So much more can be done. We'll be covering more on the rising tensions as Netanyahu desperately needs his forever war to cling to power. What these latest rising tensions mean, where things are headed in this week's bonus show publishing Saturday. And that show will include a look at Paul Manafort in the 2024 election. Yes, Paul Manafort is back because he never left and Trump needs his old loyal buddy who refused to flip on him and even went to prison for him, which is like catnip to dictator mafia boss Trump. So.
More on all that Saturday. That is a bonus show exclusive to our Patreon subscribers at the truth to our level or higher. And if you're not there with us, sign up at patreon .com forward slash Gaslit, get bonus shows, fun chats and more. And we'll be working on more live tapings and fun things later in the spring. Now running this week is one of the most important interviews we've ever produced here at Gaslit nation. You've heard me talk a lot about the rise of Christian nationalism. That's how Putin consolidated power, that's how Orban staged a comeback and has entrenched himself in power. So the Christian nationalists here, they see Trump as their savior, quite literally. They really do believe that they're living end times prophecy and that's part of the excitement of Trump. That's part of why his base is on fire, why there's so much energy for Trump. You have to watch this documentary, Bad Faith. We have this week on the show, the filmmaker behind it, Stephen Ujlaki, a producer of over 25 feature films who has served as the Dean of the Loyola Marymount University School of Film and Television. This is an episode you're going to want to send to your family and friends so that they understand Christian nationalism is an urgent threat to our democracy. It seems too insane to be true, but this has been a 40 -year -plus long game.
Andrea Chalupa (06:56.654)
reaction by white supremacy in America to civil rights. They lost the civil rights movement. They saw women's liberation rising and the white patriarchy oligarchs organized. They've been playing the long game and the Democrats have had no answer for this because they've been taking money from the same corporate donors. That's where we are. And ever since the blue wave of 2018, we've been desperately playing catch up against this 40 -year plan by the Koch Brothers Political Network and others like the Heritage Foundation Project 2025, which is a very real plan to mass purge the United States government and ensure that the DOJ and the FBI are the personal security services of the President of the United States and that any American or any person on US soil can be hit with the Insurrection Act just for exercising their constitutionally protected rights. It basically turns America into a dictatorship. All of this is real and all of this is happening. And yes, not enough is being done against it. And yes, unfortunately, this fact remains true. As I've been saying since the start of Gaslit Nation, grassroots power is the most reliable power we have left. So if you are terrified by what you are hearing, go to Gaslitnationpod.com, go to the action guide, go to the 2024 survival guide. Chip in where you can, help where you can, get involved where you can, make sure you have a community where you are, make sure you are active and engaged in your community. You're going to need those folks should the worst happen and Trump wins on November 5th, 2024. Okay, God forbid, God forbids and God is the theme of this week's episode and the abuse and misuse of what God really should mean if you are a thinking person, if you are a philosopher, if you are somebody who is empathy driven, if you are somebody that loves Star Wars, what you're about to hear is not about actual Christians, who actually study the teachings of Christ. What you're about to hear is a cynical, cutthroat quest for power that is deeply funded and well organized and has a lot of advanced targeting technology to drive out the vote and harvest support.
Andrea Chalupa (09:18.094)
And mind hack people behind it. It's very sophisticated. This operation goes deep. So now without further ado, meet Stephen Ullachy, the filmmaker behind the must watch documentary, Bad Faith out April 26, which you can pre -order now and please get your friends together and organize watch parties of bad faith. Now here's the trailer.
Bad Faith Trailer
Everything can be reduced to right and wrong. Make no mistake about it.
We are talking about Christianizing America.
Bad Faith Trailer (09:56.334)
God has given us, we will allow no one to take away. The Supreme Court has overturned Roe v. Wade.
Bad Faith Trailer (10:10.99)
We will make America great again.
Bad Faith Trailer (10:18.638)
Christian nationalism uses religion to justify all kinds of evil. Christian nationalism has been a political tool for centuries. It has nothing to do with Christianity. It's about power and politics. The goal is to enshrine Christian identity as the law of the land. To reclaim the United States for God. You can't take over society unless you take over the seven pillars. And they've gone one by one to do it. We want total war.
We are the Christian Taliban. We need to force the people to believe what we believe. When government is in the hands of godly men, it is good. But in the hands of all others, it is evil.
Andrea Chalupa (11:08.398)
So Stephen, you and I, earlier when we had met, you were saying how the Vietnam War had a big impact on you after you came back from Europe, working in French filmmaking, working in the French filmmaking industry, working with heavyweights there, that when you came back to the US, the moment of idealism coming out of civil rights and the anti -war movement had all sort of turned into cynicism and national depression. And so could you just start up there? Because all this stuff's really fascinating to me.
So what did you decide to do in that horrible moment in American history?
Stephen Ujlaki
I was disillusioned about the political consciousness of the country falling apart after the war was over. And so I went to Hollywood and I thought, OK, let me try to make docs here. But nobody was interested. They asked, why would I ever bother? I realized that the entire system is built on agents and managers and lawyers and nobody makes any money on docs.
They're in the entertainment industry, not the information. But I spent many years in Hollywood having a career in HBO, working with Michael Douglas and other people. And then I went into academia about 25 years ago. And I got some money from a donor, created a thing called the Doc Film Institute with Tom Luddy. And we started honoring people like Leapcock, Pennebaker, Brad Weissman, Ken Burns, and Tabernier and others.
And then made a doc about a Cuban musician called Cachao. Then I became dean and while dean, Trump was elected. And then I couldn't do anything about it. But two years later, when I was no longer dean, I started working on the documentary and I back to my roots in a way that I thought, OK, if ever the country needed documentaries to highlight areas that are being overlooked, this was the time. So.
That's what happened. That's how I got into it. That was about five and a half years ago.
Andrea Chalupa:
What did you know about Christian nationalism before getting started on the film?
Stephen Ujlaki
I knew very little. I was essentially focusing on the evangelicals. I knew that they were the reason that Trump had won. And I wondered how it was impossible that he had such overwhelming support from them. And so I started reading books. I read Catherine Stewart's book, The Power Worshippers. I read Michelle Goldberg's book, The Kingdom Coming.
Stephen Ujlaki (13:36.43)
I read Sam Perry's book, Taking America Back for God, and discovered about Christian nationalism. And then I read Anne's book, which gave me the whole underneath of the story, not just what was going on the surface. So I learned about Christian nationalism little by little. And then at that time, when I was trying to interview people like Franklin Graham, they were completely in denial about the fact that it existed. They said it was a liberal fantasy.
And of course, now five plus years later, they're proudly announcing that they're Christian Nationalists. But so that the country has become so much more radicalized in the last five, six years. I had to shift the focus of the documentary several times in order not to get left behind. So I learned a lot. I mean, I learned a lot about Christian Nationalism, what it was, what it wasn't. And the documentary has a lot of information, but I'm also hoping that people, it also cuts things very short and my hope was that it would inspire people to look further into certain areas because I only touched on the essential roots of it. The fact that Christian Nationalism is based on white supremacy and racism, that it's always had a different cover story to explain, you know, in order to maintain it and propagate itself. And we are now in a situation where the fact that it actually is formerly fringe group within the Republican Party has taken over the Republican Party, it's now far more powerful. People wonder why is it more powerful now than it was several years ago? It's because they took over a legacy political party and now have all that behind them. And the fruit of their 40 years of working at the state and local levels is paying off. And the fruit of their investments in the Leadership Institute and all the other organizations that have been actually indoctrinating people into a certain party line and how to talk about it, the very thing you're accusing the left of doing. I mean, it's all been massive indoctrination for the last 40 plus years paying off now.
Andrea Chalupa:
During the process of making the film, what shocked you the most?
Stephen Ujlaki:
What shocked me the most was the realization that the weakening of the democratic institutions, the attempt to actually destroy democracy was part of the plan.
Stephen Ujlaki (15:57.486)
It wasn't some, I mean, you can look around and say, look what's happened to this country. People distrust their institutions, people of the country is deeply divided. And you could think it's happenstance or just simply these things happen in history. No, it turns out that when Weirich manifesto, when Weirich realized that he was never going to accomplish a Christian nation because he would always be a minority, he had to sidestep democracy. Democracy was an obstacle in the way. And frankly, democracy has always been the enemy for these extremists, because they say that it's counter to the will of God, at least as they understand the will of God. So the fact that he flat out they were saying that this was how they were going to get to power. That shocked me. That shocked me. But at the same time, it gave the film such focus because there's a through line.
And the through line is kind of the mayhem of what's going on on January 6th, then looking back and seeing how everything led to that and to the aftermath of that. It gave a really strong through line, knowing that there was the intentionality of these people to accomplish this all along. It wasn't like bumbling in the dark. No, they were very focused.
Andrea Chalupa:
And could you tell our audience who is Weyrick? What role does he play in all this?
Stephen Ujlaki:
Well, Paul Weyrick was a Republican operative who initially worked for Goldwater and was devastated that Goldwater's loss, I mean, he was crushed in 64. And he set about trying to figure out how to get the Republicans to make the Republicans more competitive. He was also constantly creating these institutions, like he co -founded the Heritage Foundation, which is alive and doing extremely well today.
That was in ‘73, so 50 plus years later. But he was the one who decided that the way to get more power for the Republican Party was to cultivate the evangelicals. The evangelicals had stayed away from politics ever since the Scopes trial. When they humiliated them, they were treated as country bumpkins and ignoramuses because they believed in creationism and they believed in a bunch of things that the mainstream didn't believe in.
Andrea Chalupa (18:17.838)
What's the Scopes trial?
Stephen Ujlaki
The Scopes trial was a trial in which in the late 20s, in which a school teacher, I believe in Tennessee, was put on trial for teaching evolution. And this outraged those people who believed, whose faith told them that the world was actually created in 6,000 years. And that this was because, it was what he was teaching was against what the Bible said. So they were outraged. There was a trial, Clarence Starr on one side and O 'Brien, William Jennings Bryan on the other, two giants. And they were shown up to be, again, the fact that they were so much against the modern spirit of science that they were stuck in these beliefs that they believed for hundreds of years.
They felt that what they said was the public square was the playground of the devil, and the only place they were safe was in their churches and amongst themselves. They were really a subculture. And Weyrick was able to pry them loose by promising their leaders all sorts of wealth and advantages and political influence if they could convince their followers to vote Republican. And the way they decided to do that, was to say to their followers, and of course these people believed blindly, I would say, the evangelicals, and that their leader spoke the word from God. They said, you've got to vote Republican because it's the party of God. The Democratic party is the party of the devil. So they came up with this as a way to get their followers to vote Republican. The incredible irony is that this is repeated verbatim to this day and is considered an article of faith among tens of millions of Americans. And it was only a device that was used in order to get the followers who were apolitical to actually vote and to vote Republican. The other crazy thing that happened was that the real reason evangelical leaders wanted to get involved was because they wanted to defend their segregated academies, Christian academies. And with the Brown vs the Board of Education, they were no longer going to be to claim tax -exempt status. And that enraged them and made them feel that they had to, they had to turn that around. Now, that was the real reason. But Weyrich very cleverly came up with a better rallying cry. And that was defending the rights of the unborn, something he made up. He was a Catholic.
And so he knew the Catholics, conservative Catholics, were against abortion. The evangelicals had never had any problems with it. The Southern Baptist Convention in 73, after Roe vs Wade, that decision, they applauded that decision. Falwell didn't talk against abortion for five years. It was only after there was a deal to be made that they changed their tune, and abortion became the so -called reason why they had to go to the polls and what they had to defend.
It's a scam on a massive level that was incredibly successful. Both the rallying cry and the divisiveness in the country that it caused. All because they're trying to wire it, trying to make a political deal and trying to bring strength to the Republican Party, trying to make it competitive. And of course, the irony of all this is that eventually the Republican Party did not satisfy his extremism. And so they took it over, starting with the Tea Party. So it's an incredible story that people don't seem to fully understand. People know bits and pieces of it, but the fact that it's also coherent, that's the part that people have shocked people.
Andrea Chalupa:
What role do American billionaires play in this?
Stephen Ujlaki:
Well, I mean, the reality is we live in a plutocracy, so they play a very big part. They have more votes than anyone, many more. So they have been what Weyrich did in order to fund the Council for National Policy, which is a big part of Nelson's book, was to go to these oil and gas billionaires and say to them, look, if you fund us, we will politically support the deregulation and the no to low taxes that you want. And a number of them were not particularly religious, but at the same time, they were very happy to have as cover for their own economic interests this cultural issue that Weirich and his group provided. Koch ran for a libertarian in 1980 on this platform, extremist platform, and got almost no votes and realized, okay, that's not going to work. And so they then decided to team up and fund groups that would essentially be pushing their interests, but under the cover of something of a cultural issue that had a lot more appeal than simply helping him make more money. The oil and gas billionaires have been able to exercise a great deal of influence in our country. And of course, they don't do it directly. Although now what we're finding out is much it's getting much more direct in terms of the supporting Trump. But it used to be under cover of issues that were supposedly not related to their own economic well-being.
Andrea Chalupa
They were waging culture wars. And abortion was their number one culture war. And once you overturn abortion with Roe v Wade, you need new culture wars to feed the people. And then you're going to go after women's right to vote because a woman belongs in the kitchen as a baby making vessel. And they're very clear about that with who the Republican Party chose to respond to the State of the Union. That was Katie Britt out of Alabama in her kitchen with her big diamond cross around her neck. So I want to ask you, did you come across Russia or any sort of intersections with Russia or sentiment about Russia in your research?
Stephen Ujlaki
Well, what I did discover is that way back even in the 80s that these extremists were reaching out to strong men in Eastern Europe. That they were really fascinated by communism. I mean, it's crazy because of course, as you know, the Republicans always used to be, you know, fiercely prided themselves on being the most anti -communist party and that the Democrats were weak on that. But you found that this fringe actually was fascinated by some Eastern European strongmen. And I can't remember that in the Hungarians in particular, a Hungarian fascist, and I'm blocking his name. You probably know it. He had a great deal of appeal for them because when they realized that, again, that democracy was not working for them, this strong man had a great deal of appeal to them, the strong man who could get things done. So this was 40 plus years ago. And again, this is not so it sounds to the Fed, the interest in strong men now, again, it's not anything new, it's just it's more out in the open now that they're in a stronger position and they feel they can promote themselves more openly. But that's the reason.
If you take away democracy, if you say, if you manage to destroy it because you've lost, you've created fears and concerns about the validity of elections, what's left? What's left? And that's what they've been so successful doing. And that's this other story that I don't think has enough play. And I know something you're also working on, and that is how strong, how you get to the point where the public feels that a strong man is necessary. Well,
They've been planting the seeds for this all along because what's left once you don't, once you take democracy out of the picture, how is, how are, how are people going to get what they want? How are they going to get what they want?
Andrea Chalupa:
And their culture wars that they engineer creates so much chaos division that you need a strong man to come to restore order.
Stephen Ujlaki:
That's right. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, again, and this is another revelation, if you will, that I had when making the film, everything ties together because everything that's happened benefits what they eventually want. That to me is the power of the film and it's a thing that just, I mean, it's just remarkable how it all fits together. I mean, the hardest part for me in a way was to realize, wait a minute, these people had no interest in democracy. Most Americans feel, gee, we Americans, we believe in democracy. Well, guess what? There's a sizable group that don't. And the media don't like to talk about that, in the same way that they don't like to talk about anything they think has religious tone because they want to stay away from it. So these groups also get the benefit of that cover. Supposedly being part of, you know, religious, which is complete nonsense.
Andrea Chalupa:
How big would you say they are? What are their numbers? I've read some estimates that 90 to 100 million of Americans are evangelicals. But how big would you say their numbers are that are really the core of this?
Stephen Ujlaki (27:51.982)
That's very hard to say. According to people like Sam Perry, a sociologist, does a lot of studies on this. At least as of a couple of years ago, I think he said there were 60 to 70 million evangelicals. We know that they've lost members because the young people are leaving the church because a number of them are fed up with the fact that it's become so political. It has nothing to do with God or Jesus. I would imagine that there may be 80 million evangelicals, 80 to 90, but...
The majority are not Christian nationalists. The majority of Christians are not Christian nationalists. Now, in terms of amongst the evangelicals, it's a higher, I take that back. I think amongst evangelicals, they may be a majority who are Christian nationalists. Amongst Christians, they are a minority. Mm -hmm, right. Because when you look at how evangelicals vote, they vote overwhelmingly Republican. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, which doesn't always necessarily equate that they're Christian nationalists, but more and more it is clearly the there's been an upswing. And now I think it's pretty confident we can say that the majority of evangelicals are Christian nationalists. Now, a couple of evangelicals that we wanted to get the film to, because a lot of the more progressive or even middle of the road passers want to show the film because their congregations are so have become so enamored. Trump.
They are, you know, and they're losing the congregation. If they don't toe the line, their congregations fire them. It's a very, very tricky position because what you have essentially is the leaders are falling. The grassroots have become radicalized and they are more they're leading more than there are sensible leaders. And then, of course, on top of that are the people pulling the strings, you know, the billionaires, you know, and the political operatives, the people, the CNP, who are feeding the pastors the languages and their sermons that they want them to say. And that's been so successful that the followers have become totally, you know, they've been drinking the Kool -Aid and many of the pastors have lost control of their flocks, of their congregations.
Stephen Ujlaki (30:10.99)
And we wanted to, we are getting it before some evangelical groups and even, and also some Black evangelicals. We went to a conference in Yale, Reverend Barber, but the issue of one, several times they have said they do not want to show the film because the film implies that all the evangelicals are Christian nationalists. And they're saying that's not true, but regrettably more and more of them are. But it's one of those harsh truths that, that a number of them we just don't want to acknowledge. You mentioned C&P, the Council for National Policy. Who are some prominent members of the &P? Well, the amazing thing is that of the three founders, Morton Blackwell, Richard Vigery and Paul Weirich, two of them are still alive. Weirich died in December of 2008, but Blackwell and Vigery, Vigery was, of course, was the direct male genius.
Blackwell is the guy who founded the Leadership Institute and they're still alive and well. I mean, it's incredible. And they've been so successful. You know, when you understand how so many of these people are operating in lockstep and say the same thing and use the same language. Well, what we say in the film, over several hundred thousand people have gone through the Leadership Institute. They're told what phrases to use. They're told what sounds innocuous. But it's still advancing the cause step by step. So they are an army. They are an army in preparation. And, you know, it's just a question of what it's going to take. And it obviously, come election time, we'll find out. That's the scary part. They have been so indoctrinated and so inculcated. And of course, what has made it powerful has been that supposedly they're doing God's will.
And that's the most insidious part of Christian nationalism. That's what gives it its power. That's why leaders like whether it's Putin or Orban or others shield themselves, you know, align themselves with the church and their countries to give themselves that credibility.
Andrea Chalupa:
What role did they play in the violent attempted overthrow of our democracy on January 6?
Stephen Ujlaki (32:34.766)
Well, I would call them the foot soldiers. Not so much the leaders, but those who were ready to jump in. Although there were a number of pastors there. In fact, Pastor Ken was in our film and a number of other pastors were there, but they didn't necessarily go into the Capitol. But I mean, it played a it played a large role when, you know, as Jonathan Wilson -Harkow says in the film, they've been over the years been told that they need to take back the country for God. And they felt that.
In fact, Hodges, one of the people who was injured in the Capitol Jan 6 event, when he's testified before Congress, he said, these terrorists perceive themselves to be Christians. We said, like, shocked that they thought they were doing God's work. So they played a very important role, as I say, as the foot soldiers. Of course, you had QAnon, you had Proud Boys, some of the other extremist groups that we know about that were paramilitary. So it was a number of different groups, but the Christian nationalists were the ones that were the most controllable because their pastors controlled them and their pastors were controlled by the leaders also like Ralph Reed and then, I mean, the number of people who are very powerful in the extreme right. And they are just ready to do the bidding of their leaders. They believe that they are in a holy war.
And they believe that the country has fallen into the hands of the devil. I mean, all this stuff that you think is simply hyperbole or no, they believe it literally. That's pretty scary. Right. And that's why so many of them believe in QAnon. I don't know as much about the QAnon. That's something that Ann Nelson gets. I mean, there have been a couple of studies about that, the intersection, but some religious people are now falling into a QAnon. And I think it's just one conspiracy after another, because, of course, those always maintain and believe that amongst religious people, there's a tendency to believe, there's a greater tendency potentially to believe in conspiracies because of faith, that they have faith in a belief in something which is unknown, which is unseen. And therefore, if you tell them, OK, this other unknown and unseen thing is true, they could jump potentially from that one belief into another belief, all based, again, on conspiracies. I don't know how true that is. I was originally when I started doing research, I thought I would do it on conspiracies. But then I realized that wasn't broad enough. And there's conspiracies, conspiratorial thinking on the left as well. That didn't really cover it. So I don't know that much about the QAnon, except that it's growing and it gets a lot of its appeal. It has a certain appeal to people who have a religious background. Mm hmm. Yeah. There's all this reporting on evangelicals are pushing it.
Andrea Chalupa
Featured in your documentary, Bad Faith, is something called Project 2025. What is that?
Stephen Ujlaki
Project 2025, which is a 900 -page document put up by the Heritage Foundation, which was, of course, co -founded by Weyrich in 1973, but still alive and doing well, basically spells out how they would turn our form of government into a strong man government, make the presidency the, instead the having the power of a strong man with the departments and whether it's the justice or the FBI or whatever, all depended upon him. No more career civil servants. You have to be a loyalist. The thing that's interesting about 2025 is that it's in a direct line with the Weirich Manifesto that we show in the film that Weirich put together in the early 2000s. That was more about how to weaken and destroy Democracy, how to weaken distrust, create distrust in institutions. We have to use guerrilla tactics. We have to know that was how to take it apart. Project 2025 is okay. This is how we would reassemble it. This is what it would look like when we come to power. And it's a blueprint for a strong man government. And it's larger than Trump. They just want to get one of their people in there and Trump is the one that they're placing all their chips on.
Andrea Chalupa:
What do they see in Donald Trump?
Stephen Ujlaki:
Well, that's another question a lot of people have had and they've had the answer. We pretty much have been answered to it in the film. Everybody knows that any claim on his part to be religious is a joke. And in fact, as Elizabeth Newman talks about, and then she's a conservative evangelical, she says how a lot of people had a lot of contempt and disdain for him.
Stephen Ujlaki (37:24.622)
But then it turned out that she heard from these Pentecostalists who were, I forget her name, his faith advisor, Paula White, I think. Pentecostalist, prosperity preacher, claimed that he found Jesus and that he had become a Christian. And so that maybe didn't do much, but it started. And then somebody had the realization. That this was in the Bible. Sometimes God uses pagans to accomplish the goals, his goals. And so King Cyrus has come up. King Cyrus was somebody who did good things for the Jews, even though he was a pagan. And the idea is that Trump was King Cyrus. And Elizabeth says many, many people in the evangelical community got very excited about this because it felt that they were living out the prophecies. I mean, I can't tell you how upsetting it is for me to realize how gullible a lot of these people are and how they can fall for this. Now, of course, you could say they were trying to come up with some reason to justify their backing him. Now, the thing that clinched the deal, of course, for their leaders, because the leaders weren't quite so gullible, was the fact that Trump promised that he would appoint approach. Yeah, anti -abortion judges, which he did. He packed the Supreme Court with them. And that list that had been provided him by Leonard Leo. And we don't get into Leonard Leo in the federal society because it's just a film. I mean, there's so many things we could have gotten into. But Trump went about saying, OK, what do these people want? Whatever they want, I'll give them whatever they want for the support. And that was the main thing that everybody said. OK, the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court turning that around had been a goal of the extreme right. I mean, not just Roe versus Wade, but Brown versus Board of Education.
You've got to go back to the fact that they're against integration, a lot of them. They think segregation is biblical. I mean, people don't they don't talk about this part of it, but it's all it's white supremacists. Again, they they're very clever about not talking about things that sound that would alarm people. They're very, very good at making sure that it's something that you could that seems to be like a reasonable and even a humane position. Even though they know it to be complete bullshit, but at least the leaders. So, yeah.
Andrea Chalupa:
They love the culture war targeting LGBTQ plus people, especially trans people. And that's one of their latest weapons, culture or weapons that they're wielding against us. In the documentary, Bad Faith, you feature some pastors. You show footage of them being terrifying, right? And so when you interviewed these folks, how were they towards you? You came from godless Hollywood, so they must have known that you had some sort of left -wing agenda here. So how did they treat you when you were collecting your interviews?
Stephen Ujlaki
Well, a number of them would not meet with us. We did have Pastor Ken, who we had a lot of footage on him, I wish we could show more, but he made his name in Oregon, I think in Portland, and he would go to Planned Parenthood centers and he would block women from coming in, and they would do prayers there. They would pray over them and block them from coming in. And they got a lot of notoriety for that. Then he ended up branching out and he started the church in Lenore, outside of Nashville, Tennessee. And he wanted whatever publicity he could get. I mean, he, and I, again, because of COVID, we did not interview personally a lot of these people. We hired local crews, and we interviewed them remotely, but the local crews are the ones who actually were there filming. So that's what happened in that particular case. And as far as how we would be treated, I mean, there were a number of people who absolutely refused to meet with us, like Franklin Graham or people who were smart enough to know that there was no good that was going to come out of that. But a guy like Ken Peters, he was starting a new church and, you know, who is quite confident that the message he wanted to get his message out, however it was going to happen. So that's that's where we had access to him. And of course, the other evangelicals that we had access to were on the liberal progressive side, who did not the anti -Trump evangelicals. But we did not get other than Pastor Ken and a few people that we got like Greg Locke and others that we picked up footage from. There's a lot of archival work in the film. It's really like a compilation film.
Stephen Ujlaki (42:12.974)
And we did a huge number of our own interviews, but the history of it is obviously all using archival footage. Yeah. And you see them proclaiming proudly that they're the Christian Taliban. They put that label on themselves. Yeah. No, they are. They are at the point of feeling they that they're going to win, that they are. There's nothing that can stop them. And so they are very proudly proclaiming that. And what's smart about that in a way, is that that's appealing to certain people who think, gee, I want to be with a winner. I mean, what I was going to say before about the culture wars, when they choose to be against the rights of certain people, whether it's LGBTQ or whether it's trans or others, they know that the Democrats are going to be defending those people, thus, from their point of view, falling into a trap and alienating a certain number of voters. Because the reality is the majority of the country, even if they are, I mean, not, let's say left or right, but say in the middle, are not necessarily fully on board with all the progress that's been made in the civil rights of everybody in this country. I mean, we have to acknowledge that. And so therefore, the Democrats, by defending them, they are alienating, unfortunately, they are alienating segments of the country that are not fully on board.
And the Republicans can take full advantage of that. And I don't know what the answer is to that. You may have some ideas, but it's a terrible problem. You're torn between your principles and also you're trying to win an election and you're dealing with incredibly unscrupulous people. And so what can you do to actually even improve your chances? Because the other side is not to be playing in the same way. It's like you have a team or one team plays by the rules, the other doesn't. So who's more likely to win that?
Andrea Chalupa
Well, the answer the answer is to abolish electoral college because that's what gives them the advantage. And that's why what makes their culture war so effective, because you just have to win over just like a handful of a thousand votes here, a thousand votes there. And Donald Trump lost 2020 just by 40,000 votes spread across three states.
Stephen Ujlaki (44:34.318)
Well, the electoral college isn't democracy by design. Part of it, that part of it that the founders put in place to protect against the tyranny of the majority has now become the tool to create the tyranny of the minority. And that's why you're absolutely right. The electoral college would be one thing that could single handedly change the complexion and would be a true mirror of the will of the people of this country.
Andrea Chalupa
Yeah. So against this long game by the far right, I've interviewed you and Anne Nelson whose book, The Shadow Network was one of the guides for your film and Nancy McLean who wrote Democracy in Chains. And in all these conversations, it's clear the Democrats had no answer to this far right long game. There was never a democratic long game to protect our democracy. And in fact, the 2018 big blue wave, has been playing catch up ever since. And it's really down to the grassroots groups like States Project, Sister District, Indivisible, and others like and run for something to try to counter this on the all important local level, which they've saturated for decades, 40 years plus. So would you agree to that? Like there's no real long game answer to this and that we're playing catch up.
Stephen Ujlaki
Absolutely. Absolutely. They are they completely I mean, we know and I didn't really know this at, did not pay attention to the infrastructure of the Democratic Party. There's been a complacency. Of course, it used to be the strength of labor unions. Labor unions went no longer what they were. Yeah, they're destroyed by the oligarchs. They destroyed them. Reagan started with Reagan. I mean, my feeling is that starting in 1980, you had the shift in the pendulum. Basically, everything that's happened since then has been bad for the Democrats. The Democrats have not been able to figure out how to solve it other than you had if you will, of charismatic Bill Clinton and charismatic Obama that won. But in terms of everything else, there was no real work done on the sort of the Democratic Party figuring out how do we deal with the changing economy, changing demographics. And then they were counting on, they kept counting on the fact that certain people were theirs and they did not have to cultivate them. And they also did not deliver on the reform. They didn't deliver it.
Stephen Ujlaki (46:57.774)
What I would consider part of social democracy, because I don't think you can have a real democracy if you don't also have the government reigning in the corporations and supporting people who need help. Instead, you have a situation, you have like a jungle, laissez -faire capitalism from the 19th century that still exists in this country. And it's causing the ruin of the country, in my opinion. And no, there's no long game. And that's really unfortunate.
And because if Trump comes to power, they're going to be even, I don't even want to think about it, but it's a certain potential outcome that everybody needs to understand is very, very possible, very possible. I don't know how you feel about it, but.
Andrea Chalupa:
Oh, a trillion percent. I'm at the point where I'm going through the emotions now on it so I can be alert and ready come November 6th, the day after Election Day, November 5th for when the worst should happen.
Stephen Ujlaki:
Well, you've written books about this. I mean, you've read about, you know what what happens in totalitarian countries. You know what happens with dictators. I mean, that's part of the thing. Americans are so unable to understand that there's nothing special about this country. This can happen anywhere. They are not aware of the fact they don't know their history. They don't know their constitution. For whatever reason, they stopped teaching civics in class and they didn't realize that they have a role to play in a democracy, not just sort of bystanders in watching what you know what the various pundits or the news media are saying about the horse race. I mean it's very very depressing because it's hard for me to see how this is going to get turned around. I mean we're still the next number of months away so it could be and there's hope that Trump will continue to be as because more and more outrageous that he will alienate more people but you can't bet on the other side fucking up. You have what is how are you going to win?
And I haven't seen that yet.
Andrea Chalupa
Why does it seem the average American seems unaware of just how close we are to losing everything and becoming a dictatorship?
Stephen Ujlaki
You know, I think that it has to do with the fact that there haven't been any foreign invasions except in 1812. You have had after the Vietnam War, the short answer is that they have existed in a kind of a happy land where nothing terrible has happened. Things have happened, but nothing catastrophic. So there, for example, Ukraine, which is like, I can't even bear to read the newspaper anymore until I find until that Johnson actually somehow somebody gets him to give aid to them. So there was a thinking that if people saw what happened in Ukraine, they would get some understanding of what it could be like to be invaded and to be turned into a totalitarian state. I mean, there they had managed to escape it, and now they're being in danger once again. The answer is that people, they don't know history. Young kids, and I teach, don't follow the news or the politics and don't seem to feel that it's important to them. And I think that it's a fault of our educational system. And it's, for some reason, it's everything has become entertainment. What's real? They don't even follow the real news. They all have influencers. One of my projects in class was to make them read actual sources for weeks and then write about it. And it was kind of a different experience for them. And then the national media does not help at all by normalizing what's going on, the way the New York Times has treated Trump has been outrageous. And then there's the equal sides notion of the networks. I mean, the reason that my film would never got on television, people said is that it's too much taking a side. You know, I say, wait a minute, this is just the history. This is actually what happened. You say, well, it's too much in your face. It's not even there's no even attempt to make it seem like the other side has a point of view. So well, the other side doesn't have any. There is nothing valid about this side. It's a combination like bad education, bad information. And people lulled to sleep, lulled to sleep by a country that has had an incredible period of time. When I graduated from high school, I went to Jesuit schools and I was a big fan of classics, Latin and Greek, and I was a big fan of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. So I said my generation was going to witness the decline and fall of the American Empire. I said this in 1961. And I've just been shocked that it's taken so long.
Stephen Ujlaki (51:38.126)
Partially because the USSR fell first, you know, and then came back as Putin. Things don't last forever and Americans don't seem to be aware of how tenuous the grasp is on that which has made America great. That's all I can say. They do not realize that there's very little that separates us from a totalitarian country. And that's kind of what you've been writing about. It's how do you get that through?
Andrea Chalupa:
You just keep putting it in front of them. Again and again. And so I am going to encourage all of my listeners to host a bad faith watch party where you get together with family and friends, take a picture, send it to me, send me a letter, I'll read it on the show, and in exchange for organizing a Bad Faith watch party of this essential must watch documentary. I'll send you some Gaslit Nation merchandise and some other fun things. All right. That is a direct challenge to my listeners to get out there, host your Bad Faith Watch Parties, and then go to the Gaslit Nation 2024 Survival Guide and sign up for some actions you can take there starting right now to help protect our democracy in 2024 and beyond.
Stephen Ujlaki
I think that's great. I mean, one of our goals and we on our badfaithdocumentary.com on our website is that for hosting a screening, we tell you who to call, whow to contact. We're also doing everything we can to encourage screenings of people in different parts of the country to create a screening, if people have, if it's in a wealthy organization, but really just, you know, a hundred dollars if it's not. We want this to get out to as many people as possible. And every screening that we've had, people come up to me afterwards and say, you've got to get this out so everyone can see it. Because when they've seen things and understood things that they never did before, they said, you know what, maybe if other people saw this, they might feel differently. So thank you for that. I think that is a really good idea, what we're suggesting. And that's what needs to be done. The film was made to be educational. The film was made to actually motivate people to act. And so I thank you for your follow up on this. And I really do. And I know you've been on this for some time. Thank you so much.
Andrea Chalupa (53:56.014)
This election is here and it's happening. And it's bigger than Biden. We have the chance to hack away at corruption at the root by building our power at the all -important state level, where crucial quality of life issues from voting rights to environmental protections to LGBTQ plus rights and more are decided. Karl Rove ran the same strategy for the GOP during the Obama years.
laying the groundwork for Trump to come to power in 2016. Now we're reversing this dangerous trend, securing key victories in swing states to protect our elections and advance progressive laws in states like Michigan and Wisconsin, yes, even Wisconsin. Another world is possible when we unite and build together. Here's how. Join me, Andrea, at State Fair, a giving circle that collects small dollar donations among friends and family.
to build big power in key states. If 1 ,000 Gaslit Nation listeners set up a $5 recurring monthly donation, that's $5 ,000 we're sending to turn so -called red states purple and so -called purple states blue. Some of the races we've supported won by only a few votes. And we flipped the house in Pennsylvania, flipped the entire house, all right? Elected like 12 new people, massive.
And they have a crazy, extra crazy Republican Party in Pennsylvania. And that's what we did together through States Project. Thank you. Your $5 monthly donation will make a huge difference. Join me and my friends at State Fair today. You can sign up at gaslitnationpod .com. Just click on the 2024 Survival Guide on our homepage. Step number two, are there any young people in your life, Gen Z or younger? Give them the gift of the excellent book, Run for Something.
A real talk guide to fixing the system yourself. It helps people of all ages run for office. So if you're thinking of running for office, be sure to read this inspiring and practical guide. Both the book and the organization Run for Something, encourage, recruit, and train young people to run for office and flex their power. Inspire a young person and anyone you love and trust with empathy in their hearts and science in their minds to run for office today. Number three, help.
Andrea Chalupa (56:21.774)
The Helpers. State Bridges is a sister district action network program in which volunteers from across the country fundraise for organizations doing year round power building in key battleground states like Arizona, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. State Bridges supports organizations engaging communities underrepresented at the polls like mothers of color, rule voters, and Latinx voters.
Sign up to attend a virtual fundraiser and donate to help the helpers at state bridges. Number four, write letters to voters in swing districts with Vote Forward. Check out any of their easy letter writing campaigns that have already started and write letters as you listen to Gaslit Nation. We'll be keeping you company. Most importantly, number five, check your own voter registration now at election protection site.
Make sure you're registered and check in with your family and friends to confirm their voter registration too. Commit to helping five people in your life make a plan to vote and bring them along to a Gaslit Nation phone bank this fall because the only ones coming to save us is us. Grassroots power is the most reliable power we have left.
Andrea Chalupa (57:49.934)
Our discussion continues and you can get access to that by signing up at the Truthteller level and higher on Patreon at patreon .com forward slash gaslit. Support the essential work of the World Central Kitchen, whose aid workers were killed in Gaza trying to feed Palestinians trapped there in the famine genocide deliberately engineered by Israel's government. Give what you can to donate.wck.org. That's donate.wck.org.
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